Can making an odservation make you racist/sext/whatever....

[siead_lietrathua]

i still dont think it is"othering" or racist when its used as a discription though. whether its a friend or the TV news, race is a way of discribing someone. if i was picking up a friends cousin at the bus stop and they said "oh the short guy with dark hair" there could be dozens of them. tossing in a race is another way of narrowing it down. expecially since you cant just assume on the race of the describer, since many many families aroung here are multicultural.
or when the bank in next-town-over was robbed. i dont want them to just say a guy in a black hoodie. i'm glad they put out his discription (white male early 20s brown hair) and a photo so i know who to look for incase they come into our store next!

[bara]

Injecting the race of the owner into the evaluation of the car turns it into a racial thing, hence making the commenter racist.

A rather broad generalization.

Some people like to give details when telling about something. Im not saying the comment itself wont sound racist, but that doesnt mean the person making the comment is.

[Panacea]

i still dont think it is"othering" or racist when its used as a discription though. whether its a friend or the TV news, race is a way of discribing someone. if i was picking up a friends cousin at the bus stop and they said "oh the short guy with dark hair" there could be dozens of them. tossing in a race is another way of narrowing it down. expecially since you cant just assume on the race of the describer, since many many families aroung here are multicultural.
or when the bank in next-town-over was robbed. i dont want them to just say a guy in a black hoodie. i'm glad they put out his discription (white male early 20s brown hair) and a photo so i know who to look for incase they come into our store next!

You're talking about a different kind of situation than what the OP described. In the cases you discuss, mentioning race is OK because the point is not to be discriminatory. Rather it is to 1) help identify the friend's cousin so you know who you are looking for. That's perfectly legit. 2) Identify a criminal suspect. If the suspect really is black, then race is germane to the description and should be included so the police know who to look for. If the police were looking for a white robbery suspect they would want to know that he is white so they don't bother looking at blacks, Latinos, or Asians.

In the OP's case, though, race was not germane to any of the cases he cited. You can talk about the merits of a particular car modification without injecting race into it. In that case, the injection of race meant that the conversation was actually not about the cars, but about the drivers. That comment was racist.

A rather broad generalization.

Some people like to give details when telling about something. Im not saying the comment itself wont sound racist, but that doesnt mean the person making the comment is.

I'm not saying someone who makes a comment like that is a card carrying member of the KKK. Everyone has bias, and is capable of making racist comments . . . including me, btw.

The key to eliminating racism is learning to understand how words can hurt, and why some comments are racist and others aren't.

The basic definition of a racist comment is this: if you're discussing race in regards to a subject where race is unnecessary (be it cars, food, clothing, music, or whatever) then you are making a racist comment. If you get defensive when called out on that, then you are missing the opportunity to see how your bias is affecting your judgement, learning from it, and learning to change the behavior.

That's what Hemi's problem is. He got very defensive when I called him on his comments. He doesn't see the problem. He was really looking for someone to agree with his point of view when he posted his original post. I don't agree, and call it like I see it.

I don't think Hemi is a card carrying member of the KKK. I do think he needs to spend a little time evaluating his comments, and look at things from the other guy's point of view if he is ever to gain insight into not only what I've told him, but apparently what his own friends have told him (by his own admission, see his OP).

[HYHYBT]

A good rule of thumb: if you're about to say something that can be taken the wrong way, take a moment and try to rephrase things to make you less likely to be branded a jerk.

Good, but severely flawed if treated as a general principle. You are assuming that the speaker always realizes in advance might be taken the wrong way.

[Sleepwalker]

O woe is thee, for being a white man unable to comment on non white, non men without being....JUDGED.

[KabeRinnaul]

O woe is thee, for being a white man unable to comment on non white, non men without being....JUDGED.

I never understand how exactly it's not racist or sexist to judge someone more harshly in their statements because they happen to have been born a race/sex combination that has historically been in a position of power over others. I know I'll likely be considered biased in this argument, since I'm a white male myself (though before anyone deems me an unreliable commenter due to my unjust position of affluence provided by my race/sex, do recall I'm from West Virginia - we're not terribly favored economically, historically, or anythingally, really), but I really don't think it's fair to the individual commenter to dismiss their argument out of hands on the grounds that they have a slightly more fortunate heritage than others.

Oh, on that note, the Hi-C subject. I think that's mainly a socioeconomic thing - it's very popular here, with pretty much everyone regardless of race, and I don't think West Virginia is considered an economic powerhouse by any measure.

[guywithashovel]

Well, as long as you insist that the race of every single person is explicitly given, I don't see a problem with that.

I don't see how that would make a difference. Since whites are the majority here (for now, anyway), most people are just less likely to point out the race of a white person than they are the race of someone from another ethnic group. I don't think I should have people accusing me of racism merely because I said "That black guy" but not "That white woman."

I guess the reason why I tend to get annoyed over people fussing over this stuff is because the people who fuss over people casually pointing out a person's ethnicity in conversation often don't belong to the ethnicities in question (or so it seems). It seems that they're usually just white liberals who want to impress everyone with how politically correct they can be.

Here's another thought: Let's say that I'm a cashier, and a black woman comes through my line and acts like a total bitch. Later on, I vent to a coworker and say, "Gee, that black woman was horrible. She was a total SC!" Not only did I point out that she was black, but I also pointed out that she was a woman. Maybe someone could use that to tacitly accuse me of being sexist towards women. Perhaps it would be better if I just said, "That person who came through my line was really horrible." But wait! If I say that, I might be showing prejudice against all people. Maybe I should just say, "That organism who came through my line was really rude!" Of course, then an organism might get offended.

I'm really not trying to be a smart ass here. I'm just trying to help everyone see how silly I think it is to fuss over someone casually mentioning race in a conversation without any reason to suspect anything sinister from it.

[Lachrymose]

Hmm...I totally see what you're saying with the "woman" thing. I'll have to reflect on that a bit.

Also, I'm a liberal white male, and I'm definitely not in any contest to prove to anyone how PC I am (I know you didn't say that I was...I'm just sayin', is all). It's just a matter of trying to be fair, I think. That's not exactly what I mean, but I can't think of a way to phrase it at the moment.

[HYHYBT]

Talking to a coworker seems to me more like the police description example than a post on CS. You're identifying which of the people the coworker might have also noticed you are talking about.

[Panacea]

O woe is thee, for being a white man unable to comment on non white, non men without being....JUDGED.

Comment away. If you comment on a non white man in such a way that his race is not a factor, then no one will judge you.

For example, let's say you and I are sitting in the food court at the local mall when we notice a man with horrible taste in clothing. Let's say you and I make the following comments. One will be racist, the other not.

Panacea: Wow, look at that tie. I could hear it coming around the corner before I even saw the guy (translation, the tie is loud).

Sleepwalker: Yeah, the ties those black people wear, it's like they gotta be in your face with their fashion statements. (note, this is a hypothetical statement by Sleepwalker; I don't know that he would ever say anything like this.

Now, my hypothetical statement is A-OK because I never mention the race of the person wearing the tie. I keep my comment ONLY to the tie. That's not racist. It may not be kind, either (beauty is in the eye of the beholder) but it is not racist.

Sleepwalker's hypothetical comment WOULD BE racist . . . because he brings the race of the man into his comment on the tie. He's really not even talking about the tie itself; he's making a broad assumption in regards to the fashion tastes of an entire race of people, without knowing or being able to prove that it is true. He probably wouldn't notice the black people who dress conservatively; they would blend into the background along with all the WHITE people who dress conservatively.

Do you see the difference?

I never understand how exactly it's not racist or sexist to judge someone more harshly in their statements because they happen to have been born a race/sex combination that has historically been in a position of power over others.

Let me be crystal clear about this. I no more approve of a minority person making blanket statements about race, or injecting race into a subject where it does not belong, than I approve of white people doing this. What you are describing is reverse racism, and it's a different term for the same thing: racism.

I don't see how that would make a difference. Since whites are the majority here (for now, anyway), most people are just less likely to point out the race of a white person than they are the race of someone from another ethnic group. I don't think I should have people accusing me of racism merely because I said "That black guy" but not "That white woman."

But unless the race is germane to the discussion, why mention it at all? In the case of most SCs, the race of the SC really isn't the issue. It's the behaviors.

I guess the reason why I tend to get annoyed over people fussing over this stuff is because the people who fuss over people casually pointing out a person's ethnicity in conversation often don't belong to the ethnicities in question (or so it seems). It seems that they're usually just white liberals who want to impress everyone with how politically correct they can be.

I can't speak to the motives of other people. I can only speak to mine. I have an innate sense of fair play that tells me it is wrong to base my judgements on skin color, ethnicity, or culture differences.

To say that it's a PC thing by white liberals is to trivialize what people like me are saying: that it is hurtful, disrespectful, and wrong to make comments about someone's race under the cover of discussing a subject to which race has nothing to do with---like cars or clothing.

Here's another thought: Let's say that I'm a cashier, and a black woman comes through my line and acts like a total bitch. Later on, I vent to a coworker and say, "Gee, that black woman was horrible. She was a total SC!" Not only did I point out that she was black, but I also pointed out that she was a woman. Maybe someone could use that to tacitly accuse me of being sexist towards women. Perhaps it would be better if I just said, "That person who came through my line was really horrible." But wait! If I say that, I might be showing prejudice against all people. Maybe I should just say, "That organism who came through my line was really rude!" Of course, then an organism might get offended.

Your example here is exactly what I'm trying to get at. If a black woman comes through your line and is a total bitch she's a total bitch because of the way she behaved, not because she is black. The fact she is black is irrelevant and doesn't need to be discussed.

I wouldn't call her an organism. I'd call her a bitch. I have no problem with using language like that to describe offensive behavior.

I'm really not trying to be a smart ass here. I'm just trying to help everyone see how silly I think it is to fuss over someone casually mentioning race in a conversation without any reason to suspect anything sinister from it.

You think it's silly because you don't have to deal with the consequences of institutionalized racism or sexism on a day to day basis.

I'm white, so racism is not usually an issue for me. But I'm also female, and I've had to deal with sexism from people who should treat me like a fellow professional but don't. I had a police sergeant tell me I needed to get laid . . . all because I was firmly insisting he do something he was legally and duty bound to do, but didn't want to do.

I've been harassed by people who thought I was lesbian because I keep my hair short, am tall, imposing, firm and direct in how I deal with people. I don't enjoy being mistreated based on false stereotypes attributed to a group I'm not even a part of.

I try to follow the Golden Rule and treat people the way I want to be treated: with dignity and respect. So I try to avoid racial, sexual, and cultural stereotypes because I don't like it when they are applied to me.

It's not silly, and it's not funny.

[Canarr]

@Panacea: excellent points.

[Andara Bledin]

Pretty much everything Panacea just said. Most uses or race, gender, ethnicity as descriptors are really unnecessary. To claim that you are unable to figure out other adjectives to give a useful image of someone is mostly just an indication of lack of imagination.

^-.-^

[guywithashovel]

Hmm...I totally see what you're saying with the "woman" thing. I'll have to reflect on that a bit.

Also, I'm a liberal white male, and I'm definitely not in any contest to prove to anyone how PC I am (I know you didn't say that I was...I'm just sayin', is all). It's just a matter of trying to be fair, I think. That's not exactly what I mean, but I can't think of a way to phrase it at the moment.

I'm actually fairly liberal myself, and I was sure you weren't trying to prove anything. I honestly just don't see the fuss.

But unless the race is germane to the discussion, why mention it at all? In the case of most SCs, the race of the SC really isn't the issue. It's the behaviors.



I can't speak to the motives of other people. I can only speak to mine. I have an innate sense of fair play that tells me it is wrong to base my judgements on skin color, ethnicity, or culture differences.

To say that it's a PC thing by white liberals is to trivialize what people like me are saying: that it is hurtful, disrespectful, and wrong to make comments about someone's race under the cover of discussing a subject to which race has nothing to do with---like cars or clothing.



Your example here is exactly what I'm trying to get at. If a black woman comes through your line and is a total bitch she's a total bitch because of the way she behaved, not because she is black. The fact she is black is irrelevant and doesn't need to be discussed.

I wouldn't call her an organism. I'd call her a bitch. I have no problem with using language like that to describe offensive behavior.



You think it's silly because you don't have to deal with the consequences of institutionalized racism or sexism on a day to day basis.

I'm white, so racism is not usually an issue for me. But I'm also female, and I've had to deal with sexism from people who should treat me like a fellow professional but don't. I had a police sergeant tell me I needed to get laid . . . all because I was firmly insisting he do something he was legally and duty bound to do, but didn't want to do.

And how do you know I don't have to deal with racism or sexism on a daily basis?

And no disrespect, but it seems that you kind of missed the point of my analogy. Once again, assume that a black woman comes through my checkout line and acts like a bitch, and then later on, I vent to a coworker and say, "Boy, that black woman was a total bitch." Yes, I used her ethnicity when I talked about her, but it was merely a description of her. It's not racist if I just said it as a description. Now, if I said it in a tone of voice that implied that she acted that way because she was black, then it would be a different story.

Also, her race wasn't all I mentioned. I also pointed out that she was a black WOMAN. Is that sexist? Should I just say, "Boy, that person was a total bitch!" That was kind of the point I was trying to get at. If we say that using race as a description is wrong, then the same logic can be used for gender or other descriptions.

Also, Panacea, in your hypothetical about the man wearing the tie, you used the man's gender as a description. How is that worse than using black, Asian, etc. as a descriptor? In addtion, your hypothetical isn't really what I was talking about earlier. In that case, someone really is pegging negative behavior to race, which really is wrong. Though I'm curious as to why you think it's okay to make fun of someone's style of dress, but think it's not okay to merely say, "Boy, that Arab guy was rude." (with no tone of voice to imply that being Arabic caused him to be rude). I was talking about casually mentioning a person's ethnicity in conversation, as in the situation with the black woman in the checkout line.

Pretty much everything Panacea just said. Most uses or race, gender, ethnicity as descriptors are really unnecessary. To claim that you are unable to figure out other adjectives to give a useful image of someone is mostly just an indication of lack of imagination.

^-.-^

How is it a lack of imagination to describe a black woman as a black woman? Are you really suggesting that we should never use race, gender, or ethnicity as descriptors? In that case, when we talk about people, we could never get more specific than "This person said that" or "That person did this." Of course, we could say "The person with red hair said this," but then someone might say that's prejudice against redheads.

Side note: I know I've probably come off as a smart ass in this thread. It's just that I have never understood this line of reasoning, and to me, it really does seem like a good number of people use it to show how "tolerant" or "PC" they can be. Not to say anyone in this thread is doing that.

[siead_lietrathua]

... assume that a black woman comes through my checkout line and acts like a bitch, and then later on, I vent to a coworker and say, "Boy, that black woman was a total bitch." Yes, I used her ethnicity when I talked about her, but it was merely a description of her....
...Should I just say, "Boy, that person was a total bitch!" ...

If you had just said that the person was a bitch, odds are a coworker would want to know which one, so you would end up having to give a physical discription in the end anyway.

[guywithashovel]

I would also like to add something else here because I forgot to include it earlier, and people seem to be taking things in this direction.

I wasn't advocating any negative stereotypes towards races, genders, etc. Yes, if you negatively stereotype someone based merely on those things, that's wrong.

Nonetheless, I don't see how just saying "The black guy did this" is wrong, and I don't see how it trivializes anyone's experience with sexism or racism (assuming it isn't said in a tone of voice that implies racism, of course).