Can making an odservation make you racist/sext/whatever....

[Hyena Dandy]

See, it is wrong, but it's wrong on a lesser level.

It's tempting to consider all racism equal. But saying 'some black guy was an ass to me earlier' you may be wrong to be commenting on their race, but you're LESS wrong. It's something that a lot of people do, because if you're in a situation where there aren't a lot of black people around, it's notable that someone was black. It's one of the first things you notice. It's not GOOD that it's one of the first things you notice, but it's better than it being the first thing you notice and then you making a judgement about it.

If that makes sense?

[siead_lietrathua]

i think race is one of the first things we notice, be it white black hispanic etc. noticing race isnt a bad thing. its the reactions to races that can peg one as racist. just because someone doesnt care what race a person is, doesnt mean that they dont see it. (no blind jokes please :P )

[Panacea]

I'm actually fairly liberal myself, and I was sure you weren't trying to prove anything. I honestly just don't see the fuss.

It's OK that you don't understand. I'm trying to explain it to you. It might help if you tried walking in the other guy's shoes.

And how do you know I don't have to deal with racism or sexism on a daily basis?

I don't. But if you do, why would you consider returning it in kind to be OK? Doesn't that strike you as a bit tit for tat?

And no disrespect, but it seems that you kind of missed the point of my analogy. Once again, assume that a black woman comes through my checkout line and acts like a bitch, and then later on, I vent to a coworker and say, "Boy, that black woman was a total bitch." Yes, I used her ethnicity when I talked about her, but it was merely a description of her. It's not racist if I just said it as a description. Now, if I said it in a tone of voice that implied that she acted that way because she was black, then it would be a different story.

Oh, no, I got your point. Unfortunately, you seem to have missed mine. Unless the woman in question is in a crowd of other black women, and you are trying to point out WHICH black woman it was to a CW who did not witness the event, then her skin color is not relevant and does not need to be brought up. You don't NEED to tell me she's black in order to tell me she's a bitch. Just tell me she's a bitch; I get that. I only need more physical description if you need to point that particular bitch out of a crowd.

Otherwise, skin color or race is not important. If you think it is important, then you are missing my entire point.

Also, her race wasn't all I mentioned. I also pointed out that she was a black WOMAN. Is that sexist? Should I just say, "Boy, that person was a total bitch!" That was kind of the point I was trying to get at. If we say that using race as a description is wrong, then the same logic can be used for gender or other descriptions.

Since a bitch is a female dog, the word is typically applied to females. So if you started talking about, "Boy, this bitch came through my line at the register," I would automatically assume you were talking about a woman. However, I do recall that some folks have started using the word bitch to denigrate a man they feel particular contempt for. Personally, I don't think comparing a man to a woman is any better than making racial comments. If I'm going to insult a man, I'll just call him an asshole.

Also, Panacea, in your hypothetical about the man wearing the tie, you used the man's gender as a description. How is that worse than using black, Asian, etc. as a descriptor? In addtion, your hypothetical isn't really what I was talking about earlier. In that case, someone really is pegging negative behavior to race, which really is wrong. Though I'm curious as to why you think it's okay to make fun of someone's style of dress, but think it's not okay to merely say, "Boy, that Arab guy was rude." (with no tone of voice to imply that being Arabic caused him to be rude). I was talking about casually mentioning a person's ethnicity in conversation, as in the situation with the black woman in the checkout line.

It is very uncommon for women to wear ties. Usually they wear scarves. Perhaps I am showing my age bias

I don't think it's ok to make fun of anyone's style of dress. Note that I said that my hypothetical comment was not kind, even though it wasn't racist. I used the example I did to show how a comment can be racist one way, and not racist in another way. I never said the comment might not be taken offensively in other ways. I was talking about how to avoid racist comments, not to avoid being a jerk altogether. That's another subject

How is it a lack of imagination to describe a black woman as a black woman? Are you really suggesting that we should never use race, gender, or ethnicity as descriptors? In that case, when we talk about people, we could never get more specific than "This person said that" or "That person did this." Of course, we could say "The person with red hair said this," but then someone might say that's prejudice against redheads.

I could describe a particular women in any number of ways. Here are some examples:

"The woman in the green dress with the black hair ribbon."
"The woman in the red paisley sweater and the grey slacks."
"The woman with the little boy and girl standing next to her."
"The woman pushing the cart with the big stereo in it."
"The woman over there by the DVD bin."

I came up with five different ways to describe a woman without even breaking a sweat.

Since I don't know of any particular bias against red headed people, but DO know there is plenty of bias against blacks, your comment really does little more than attempt to distract the reader from the subject at hand: that it is not necessary to inject someones race into a discussion, and that doing so often reveals the biases and prejudices of the speaker in a negative way.

Side note: I know I've probably come off as a smart ass in this thread. It's just that I have never understood this line of reasoning, and to me, it really does seem like a good number of people use it to show how "tolerant" or "PC" they can be. Not to say anyone in this thread is doing that.

I don't take you as being a smart ass. I do see your arguments as being fairly typical of someone with bias who is attempting to defend that bias because they don't want to be perceived as racist, even as they make potentially racist comments.

It's OK to flub and make such a comment every now and then EVERYONE has prejudices and anyone who tells you they don't is either oblivious or a flat out liar (including lying to themselves). But if we are to end racial conflict, the first step is to learn HOW we make insensitive comments so we can train ourselves out of giving offense without intending to.

It altogether another subject if you give offense because you are doing so deliberately. Calling someone a bitch is not a nice thing to do, but I've done it plenty of times when I felt the label was well and truly deserved. It is not ladylike for me to do this, and I freely admit to having indulged in poor behavior from time to time.

If you had just said that the person was a bitch, odds are a coworker would want to know which one, so you would end up having to give a physical discription in the end anyway.

It depends. If there is only one woman in sight, then there is no need to say "that black woman." Just say, that woman over there. You're unlikely to confuse people if she's the only woman in sight.

If not, then see my examples above for how to avoid depending on race as a descriptor when it is plainly unnecessary.

i think race is one of the first things we notice, be it white black hispanic etc. noticing race isnt a bad thing. its the reactions to races that can peg one as racist. just because someone doesnt care what race a person is, doesnt mean that they dont see it. (no blind jokes please :P )

No, there is nothing wrong with noticing race. It is injecting race into negative comments when race is not the issue that is racist. Please see my many examples in this thread.

[siead_lietrathua]

No, there is nothing wrong with noticing race. It is injecting race into negative comments when race is not the issue that is racist. Please see my many examples in this thread.

and other people gave examples where race is used as a describer and you would reply with it not being nessesary to mention race at all.
going back to the black-woman-bitch" example going on.
you listed various descriptions of women:

"The woman in the green dress with the black hair ribbon."
"The woman in the red paisley sweater and the grey slacks."
"The woman with the little boy and girl standing next to her."
"The woman pushing the cart with the big stereo in it."
"The woman over there by the DVD bin."

is it any less discriptive or more offensive with race added in?

"The asian woman in the green dress with the black hair ribbon."
"The white woman in the red paisley sweater and the grey slacks."
"The black woman with the little boy and girl standing next to her."
"The native american woman pushing the cart with the big stereo in it."
"The middle eastern woman over there by the DVD bin."

because i dont see a diffrence. because the race doesnt matter in the sentances other than to describe the same person either way. none of these statements were made into racial slurs by adding in the race.
i think people are mixing up racism with mentioning race at all. i'm sorry but saying a person is black/asian/white/etc is not racist unless the tone and intent behind it is derogetory. same with ageism or sexism.

[Hyena Dandy]

Oh, no, I got your point. Unfortunately, you seem to have missed mine. Unless the woman in question is in a crowd of other black women, and you are trying to point out WHICH black woman it was to a CW who did not witness the event, then her skin color is not relevant and does not need to be brought up. You don't NEED to tell me she's black in order to tell me she's a bitch. Just tell me she's a bitch; I get that. I only need more physical description if you need to point that particular bitch out of a crowd.

One thing which I think is relevant to this conversation, and I'm not really criticizing either side.

As human beings, we can't keep track of people outside of ones we know. If we're talking about that woman who was a bitch in line, or whatever, we'll put one or two 'tags' to the person so we can remember. That's an instinctual thing. If the person is black, we 'tag' them as black, because that distinguishes them from the rest of the people in the area.

If that makes sense.

[DrFaroohk]

I was in McDonalds yesterday...my cashier was a non-white, non-english speaking variety. It was very frustrating, especially when my order was "2 hamburger happy meals, 1 girl and 1 boy" to which he'd reply "Two doubles cheese burgers?"

The frustrating doesn't make me racist does it? Nor does the belief that one should stick to where they know the language. You don't see me wandering the middle of Russia fucking up everyone's day.

[siead_lietrathua]

The frustrating doesn't make me racist does it? Nor does the belief that one should stick to where they know the language. You don't see me wandering the middle of Russia fucking up everyone's day.

no it doesnt. you are frustrated at the language barrier, not the person for their race.
just, ya know, you cant SAY what race they are. 'cuz then you are being racist. or something. :/
even though it could be a minority-race guy with a heavy german accent.

kinda makes you giggle. not at that idea but the expressions people would make when you explain that guy.
personA: "geez i had a hard time understanding that middle-eastern clerk"
personB: "i know! people should learn english!"
personA: "exactly! jeez this isnt germany!!"
personB: O_O

why? because everyone expects the middle eastern guy to have a middle eastern accent. maybe that makes THEM racist!

[DrFaroohk]

just, ya know, you cant SAY what race they are. 'cuz then you are being racist. or something. :/

lol "You noticed a difference! YOU ARE RACIST!"

[Panacea]

is it any less discriptive or more offensive with race added in?

"The asian woman in the green dress with the black hair ribbon."
"The white woman in the red paisley sweater and the grey slacks."
"The black woman with the little boy and girl standing next to her."
"The native american woman pushing the cart with the big stereo in it."
"The middle eastern woman over there by the DVD bin."

because i dont see a diffrence. because the race doesnt matter in the sentances other than to describe the same person either way. none of these statements were made into racial slurs by adding in the race.
i think people are mixing up racism with mentioning race at all. i'm sorry but saying a person is black/asian/white/etc is not racist unless the tone and intent behind it is derogetory. same with ageism or sexism.

In order to avoid making statements that can be racist, we have to change the entirety of our behavior. Many commonly made racist statements are made precisely because we inject race into areas where it isn't needed at all.

From a purely physical description standpoint, it is grammatically correct English to include the racial descriptor. But the over use and unnecessary use of those descriptors is what leads people into inject race into comments that then become racist. By becoming conscious of what we say, and avoiding the use of race except for those instances where it is absolutely necessary (for example, to describe a criminal suspect to the police, or to point out a friend in a crowd to someone who does not know them) it then becomes easier to avoid stereotypes that lead us into racist comments.

Talk about the car, not the driver.

One thing which I think is relevant to this conversation, and I'm not really criticizing either side.

As human beings, we can't keep track of people outside of ones we know. If we're talking about that woman who was a bitch in line, or whatever, we'll put one or two 'tags' to the person so we can remember. That's an instinctual thing. If the person is black, we 'tag' them as black, because that distinguishes them from the rest of the people in the area.

If that makes sense.

What you say makes sense, but it is lazy behavior. Why add the descriptor at all? The answer is, we are being lazy and not thinking about what we are saying. Hence, we open ourselves to accusations because we want to include a fact about that person that has nothing to do with what we're actually talking about, ie the fact that woman is a bitch. By saying "that black bitch" we leave ourselves to the implication that we mean only black people can be bitches, which is not true.

I was in McDonalds yesterday...my cashier was a non-white, non-english speaking variety. It was very frustrating, especially when my order was "2 hamburger happy meals, 1 girl and 1 boy" to which he'd reply "Two doubles cheese burgers?"

The frustrating doesn't make me racist does it? Nor does the belief that one should stick to where they know the language. You don't see me wandering the middle of Russia fucking up everyone's day.

No, being frustrated does not make you racist. However, your issue was with the language barrier not the race of the person. You would have been just as frustrated if the guy was a native Pole or Russian . . . so there is no need to point out that the cashier was not white. Just tell me he can't speak English; I'll sympathize with the frustration. Leave his race out of it; because it can leave you open to the perception that your problem was really with his skin color and not his mastery of our language.

[siead_lietrathua]

Leave his race out of it; because it can leave you open to the perception that your problem was really with his skin color and not his mastery of our language.

but isnt the perception that he only cares about the problem because of a persons race simply another form of racism? so shouldnt the perception that mentioning race is racist also be changed with the perception of race being negative?
if an asian man that spoke english well was ranting about another asian man that didnt speak it properly, and used race as a disriptor, is that still racist?

[Beckpatton]

One thing I'd like to point out that I don't think has been mentioned yet, is that you don't have to use racist/sexist slurs etc in a statement in order to be considered racist or sexist.

Many people can make "observations" that are broad generalisations about a certain race or gender, or religion without using any of the nasty words, that are just as hurtful and wrong as if they had!

I have no problem with people who observe that a particular person did something that perpetuates a stereotype, for example: I've just seen an Asian person crash their car or make a ridiculous turn or something. I might think to myself (or say to my friend) "and people wonder where stereotypes come from" or "Way to go, helping perpetuate the stereotype" and giggle or roll my eyes depending on my mood.

What I wouldn't say is "Look what that guy did, why is it Asians don't know how to drive!" as that "observation" would be racist!

As for using race/gender as a descriptor, I have no problem with it, as most times people will use the most obvious descriptor that makes the person stand out. If you are at work, and have had mostly white customers all day, and the person you are talking about is the one black person who gave you a hard time, then you'd probably say "Geez that black guy I served earlier was a real jerk" but it could just as easily be

"WOW that blonde with the big boobs before was a total babe" or
"that old fart with the cane took forever" or
"that lady over there with the 6 kids needs help" or
"that dude with the glasses/ugly shirt/red hair/B.O etc etc

If it was a store with mostly black patrons and they wanted to bitch about the white customer who gave them a hard time earlier, than I am sure it would have been "did you hear that white bitch before..!"

Like I said, using the descriptor that stands out most shouldn't be a bad thing, it helps narrow things down quicker! But if you follow up that statement with "Bloody hell all these black/white/old/big busted/crazy mothers/people with glasses are bitches/morons/pains in the arse" etc then you making a broad generalisation & are showing your prejudice!

[Andara Bledin]

We do the same thing with age.

And while CS goes a long way to protecting children even derogatory names the specific kids in question have earned, there's precious little done about the general anti-elder slant to quite a number of the posts. Which is a massive double standard that I've pointed out once or twice.

If the trait in question isn't germane to the complaint, it's irrelevant and often a sign of bias. "Everybody does it" is not an excuse; it's merely an indication that most people are biased and since nobody ever even thinks about it, that shows how ingrained it is in the cultures they are part of.

You don't have to mention that some asshole with an expired coupon was an old man - he's an asshole no matter how old he is. And you don't need to mention that the guy trying to buy booze without ID looked under 30, because if you don't have ID, you're not getting booze no matter how old you look.

You don't need to mention that the customer service rep on the phone was Indian or Chinese when the problem is that their accent was so thick you couldn't understand them at all.

And you don't need to mention that the uppity jerk that made a stink about only getting the special price on 2 of their 8 items that have a limit of only 2 at that price is black or Asian or Hispanic or eastern European.

^-.-^

[siead_lietrathua]

And you don't need to mention that the guy trying to buy booze without ID looked under 30, because if you don't have ID, you're not getting booze no matter how old you look.

this one i immediatly disagree with because many places have id if looks under ___ rules, so the age is a factor.
and again, using age/race/sex as a descriptive tool is not ageist/racist/sexist unless the intent behind it is agist/racist/sexist. i mean, really, what's next. cant desribe people by hair colour cuz its too closely tied to race? body type because it could be seen as a form of weightism? mention they have glasses or a cane and suddenly you hate people with disabilities?
what if you are saying positive things? that this sexy black woman came through your checkout, or this really hot asian guy. are you now being racist against other races because you found that one person hot?
seriously. my head is exploding from this. it makes no sense to me O_O

[bara]

By saying "that black bitch" we leave ourselves to the implication that we mean only black people can be bitches, which is not true.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I must add that people assuming race is a factor just because it is used as a descriptor is pretty stupid as well.

[siead_lietrathua]

^^ this. you arent saying all black people are bitches. just that that particular person was. if you mean all black people are bitches you would say "damn all black women are bitches" or "that black woman is a bitch like all the rest of them", although that last one could refer to "black" or "woman".