Another bullying related death, this time the victim is all right.

[Kheldarson]

So, by the logic in this thread, I would have been justified bringing a gun to school and shooting a bully if he hit me. Totally legit since it's self-defense and all. Who cares whether my life was actually in danger or not? It's justified cause bullies need to be stopped.

That's not what's being said. This fight was being advertised. Other kids knew about it. The bullied kid knew it was going to happen. He didn't want it. He obviously didn't feel confident in his ability to walk away from the fight if it got started, so he brought a deterrent. He made his deterrent known. He went out of his way to make sure his deterrent wouldn't be used by deliberately changing his routine. The bully followed and initiated the fight. To which the kid...tried to get away again. But he was prevented so brought out his deterrent.

What's being said is that as a last option scenario, we find ourselves understanding the kid's position.

In your example, you're indicating one hit as a trigger point. That would be an overkill response. Which would not sit well. That's saying "If he hits me one more time, I'll make sure he can't again permanently" not "I honestly think he might kill me today if I can't prevent running into him after school".

[Greenday]

That's not what's being said. This fight was being advertised. Other kids knew about it. The bullied kid knew it was going to happen. He didn't want it. He obviously didn't feel confident in his ability to walk away from the fight if it got started, so he brought a deterrent. He made his deterrent known. He went out of his way to make sure his deterrent wouldn't be used by deliberately changing his routine. The bully followed and initiated the fight. To which the kid...tried to get away again. But he was prevented so brought out his deterrent.

What's being said is that as a last option scenario, we find ourselves understanding the kid's position.

Well, it's a damn shame he skipped some steps to get there.

As per the bold, if he knew it was going to happen, why didn't he get someone who could prevent it and instead just resort to using a deadly weapon?

I could just as easily say that since he knew the bully would follow him, he lured him into a false sense of security, pulled his knife, then proceed to purposely kill him. Hell, that's the first thing that popped up into my head. I haven't seen any stone cold facts that can prove this theory wrong.

I just don't understand why he had to escalate from running away to killing someone without even bothering with anything in between.

[Gravekeeper]

Sucks all around, but I have to agree with the ruling.

This kid was obviously at the end of his rope and he certainly wasn't getting help from anywhere. His mom called the cops on him when he refused to go to school and had them physically escort him to school. He would avoid the bus on the way home, opting instead to walk a distant that would normally be a 30 minute drive. He frequently got off the bus before his stop just to try and avoid them. Even on the day of the fight, they taunted him the entire way on the bus while he tried to ignore them.

But since we appear to be having trouble grasping the level of dickery here. Lets look at the actual court documents:

The bus was, as other students testified, "segregated" with only the "cool" kids allowed to hang out at the back. Who would then regularly taunt and throw shit at the uncool kids up at the front. This occurred weekly if not daily according to witnesses. The kid in particular had to take ESE classes for a learning disability and this was specifically what Bully & Co taunted and picked on him for. According to the court documents, they would constantly and daily call him "Pussy, gay, faggot and wimp" and were always threatening "We're gonna get you" or "You better watch your back". While throwing "paper clips, crumbled balls of paper, pens and pencils" at the students in the front. This has been going on for the entire school year.

Then, and I will paraphrase the Findings of Fact from the actual court documents:

Bully's Friend A went up to the Kid repeatedly trying to get him to agree to fight Bully. Kid refused every single time. Bully & Co's friends repeated told Kid that "Today's the day" he's going to have his ass completely kicked. Kid and Kid's Friend decide to get off the bus early to avoid Bully and Posse. Bully and Posse ( 4 additional kids, all his friends ) get off and follow them. Several other kids that normally get off at that stop also follow. Bully and Possee follow Kid and yell taunts and insults at him. In total, there are "at least" 10 other kids that followed and eventually formed a ring around Bully and Kid egging on the fight. Effectively trapping him. Per witness testimony of a neabry adult who noticed the incident.

The fight began when Bully punched Kid in the back of the head. Kid did not fight back and tried to escape. Bully punched him in the back of the head again. Several more times. Bully's Friend A and B began yelling "Get him!" and "Hit him harder!". Kid is dazed from the blows and hears the Bully's Friends run up too. Bully is whailing on Kid, Kid is terrified, pulls knife. Stabs Bully once in the abdomen. Bully keeps punching him because Bully is running on rage adreneline. So Kid keeps stabbing. Because Bully is still beating the fuck out of him. Even as Bully begins to clue in to the fact he's injured, Bully still orders his friends to "Get him!" as Kid gets free and runs away. Kid runs away and hides in the woods. Afraid they're going to keep beating the shit out of him. He hides until he's found later by authorities.

The "Stabbed 12 times" angle to this is just stupid media rageporn. He didn't straddle him and stab him over and over like a horror movie. He stabbed him once, and that didn't stop the beating. So he kept stabbing until the beating stopped. He didn't stab until he had a confirmed kill. He stabbed until the threat stopped and he could escape. AKA he used force until the threat to his person had stopped.

AKA self defence.

[Greenday]

Too much to quote so I'm just going to respond. At no point, did I read ANYTHING in what you posted, that justified killing someone.

Again, there was steps he skipped in order to kill the kid. If he knew it was coming, he could have called the cops. He chose to go the way of using a weapon meant to kill people.

Self Defense =/= Overkill

[Racket_Man]

hmmmmm this sounds a LOT like the McDonalds clerk beating up on 2 women that ATTACKED HIM thread

esp in post #42 where GK posts a link to a cleaner video of the inicident. I like GKs analysis of the situation.

then there is Kitter Cat's post (#52) equating this situation at the McDonald to bullying victims

[Greenday]

hmmmmm this sounds a LOT like the McDonalds clerk beating up on 2 women that ATTACKED HIM thread

Not really in my opinion.

[Gravekeeper]

Again, there was steps he skipped in order to kill the kid. If he knew it was coming, he could have called the cops. He chose to go the way of using a weapon meant to kill people.

Self Defense =/= Overkill

This is not a mature adult. This is a scared kid with a learning disability who was being threatened every single day with violence.

His parents did not help him they called the cops on him. Why would he trust the cops when the cops forced him to go back to the place he was being tormented? Also, in the court documents, it lists an incident where a cop took him to school despite his objections and when he tried to leave the school grounds the cop physically restrained him. Then arrested him for assaulting an officer after he squirmed ( The charge was dismissed within 24 hours ). Why would he trust the cops? Even if he did call the cops, they're not going to magically teleport there in time to save him from having the shit kicked out of him. If they even bothered to listen to him at all instead of dismissing it as just some kids fighting.

Also he did not know this particular incident was coming until the day of the bus ride. He did not get the knife in response to being told this incident was coming. He already had begun carrying the knife prior to this because he was terrified they would find him when he was sneaking home instead of taking the bus.

So if you've been threatened for months, harrassed, tormented and no one will help you or listen to you. Then 5 guys tell you they're going to fuck your shit up today. You try to escape. They follow you, surround you and one of them begins beating the every living piss out of you. Starting with blows to the *back* of the head ( Which is serious shit by the way. ). You're suppose to what? Let them beat the fuck out of you? Hope the cops arrive before they beat you into a coma and/or die from brain hemmoraging? Oh well, worst comes to worst I'll just wake up in a hospital bed 6 months from now and have to relearn how to walk, no problem?

You really think a bunch of hot headed teenagers in a mob frenzy were going realize they could easily kill or disable this kid for life? No, they're going to pummel the shit out of him till he falls unconcious then beat him some more for good measure. Than 5 minutes of uncomfortable silence later one of them might think to call an ambulance.

[SkullKing]

hmmmmm this sounds a LOT like the McDonalds clerk beating up on 2 women that ATTACKED HIM thread

Well, both of them relate toa self-defense situation, where some argue the defender used exessive force.

[DrFaroohk]

Because anyone who stabs someone 12 times is not right in the head, is a murderer, and has no business being out in society.

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

I would call it murder if the other kid did nothing to provoke the situation. If it was just some creepy kid with a knife who got off the bus one day and said "I'm gonna stab me someone".

[Andara Bledin]

Again, there was steps he skipped in order to kill the kid. If he knew it was coming, he could have called the cops.

As Gravekeeper said, the cops have already been involved and forced him to go back to the place where he was being abused.

The cops failed him. The school failed him. His parents failed him. There was nobody with any power that was on his side. To try to claim otherwise is pure ignorance.

So, no, a pocket knife is not even remotely "overkill."

And, since it didn't seem to sink in the first time I mentioned it, the state of Florida has a law that specifically allows for any victim to use deadly force if they can be shown to be in fear of great bodily injury, and they don't even have to try to avoid the fight, either. So even if you continue to think that it was excessive, the law says otherwise.

^-.-^

[Greenday]

As Gravekeeper said, the cops have already been involved and forced him to go back to the place where he was being abused.

Because "I'm scared to go to school" is so similar to "My life is being threatened and I'm in immediate danger!" so I'm sure the cops would react the same.

So, no, a pocket knife is not even remotely "overkill."

Taking a pocket knife with the intent of stabbing somebody, possibly to death, seems like overkill to me.

And, since it didn't seem to sink in the first time I mentioned it, the state of Florida has a law that specifically allows for any victim to use deadly force if they can be shown to be in fear of great bodily injury, and they don't even have to try to avoid the fight, either. So even if you continue to think that it was excessive, the law says otherwise.

I ignored it do to irrelevance. Post it again if you like, murder is still murder. Based on the information given, him being in mortal danger is very questionable. An ass kicking? Definitely. But in danger of being killed? Unlikely. I don't even see evidence of an ass beating so bad that he'd be in the hospital. But then again none of us were there so I'm trying to go with the evidence we have, not what we imagine happened.;

[Gravekeeper]

Because "I'm scared to go to school" is so similar to "My life is being threatened and I'm in immediate danger!" so I'm sure the cops would react the same.

You're still asking for a bullied and scared kid with a learning disability to act like a calm and level headed adult in a situation where he thought he was going to die.

Taking a pocket knife with the intent of stabbing somebody, possibly to death, seems like overkill to me.

He had a pocket knife with the intent of defending himself. If you didn't grasp it yet, this kid was scared shitless. Hiking what was a 30 minute drive on foot just to avoid any possibility of an encounter.

I ignored it do to irrelevance. Post it again if you like, murder is still murder. Based on the information given, him being in mortal danger is very questionable. An ass kicking? Definitely

Two points: A) No one has the right to beat the shit out of you. B) A severe beating can and will disable or kill a person just as readily. Even a severe concussion will change your life forever. Especially blows to the back of the head which did, according to the court record, knock the kid near senseless. Also, the Bully did not stop hitting him after he was stabbed. Even after he realised he was hurt, he still ordered his friends after the Kid ( a 4 on 1 ). You seriously think a raging teenage boy with a mob cheering him on was just going to give him a little rough up and send him on his way home? Fuck no. He was going to beat the living piss out of the kid and ran a real risk of killing him or hurting him for life.

The "kids will be kids" attitude is half the problem that put this kid in this situation to begin with.

[fireheart17]

An ass kicking? Definitely. But in danger of being killed? Unlikely. I don't even see evidence of an ass beating so bad that he'd be in the hospital. But then again none of us were there so I'm trying to go with the evidence we have, not what we imagine happened.;

I refer you to a home-grown case of mine, where one punch CAN kill:

Sam Davis

http://www.onepunchcankill.qld.gov.au/campaigns.htm

Darwin Assault

Both of the cases I mentioned involved no self-defence.

http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au...given-9-years/

Another case. In all three cases, there were NO weapons.

[Greenday]

You're still asking for a bullied and scared kid with a learning disability to act like a calm and level headed adult in a situation where he thought he was going to die.

He's old enough to know better. And if his learning disability puts him so far behind mentally, he should be at a different school that focuses on kids with learning disabilities.

He had a pocket knife with the intent of defending himself. If you didn't grasp it yet, this kid was scared shitless. Hiking what was a 30 minute drive on foot just to avoid any possibility of an encounter.

I didn't see any proof that it was an attempt to get away from them. The word of a defendant doesn't mean a whole lot.

Two points: A) No one has the right to beat the shit out of you. B) A severe beating can and will disable or kill a person just as readily. Even a severe concussion will change your life forever. Especially blows to the back of the head which did, according to the court record, knock the kid near senseless. Also, the Bully did not stop hitting him after he was stabbed. Even after he realised he was hurt, he still ordered his friends after the Kid ( a 4 on 1 ). You seriously think a raging teenage boy with a mob cheering him on was just going to give him a little rough up and send him on his way home? Fuck no. He was going to beat the living piss out of the kid and ran a real risk of killing him or hurting him for life.

The "kids will be kids" attitude is half the problem that put this kid in this situation to begin with.

Thank you for telling me something I know. A good friend's brother was beat to death three years ago on St. Patricks Day and died as a result of blows to the back of the head. Of course the bully didn't stop when he got stabbed. You think he should just stand there and take it? "Oh, go ahead and continue stabbing me. I'll just stand here and let you go on, shall I?" No, he was fighting for his life at that point from someone trying to kill him.

I've seen no proof to say that it was going to go beyond a regular school fight.

[DrFaroohk]

I didn't see any proof that it was an attempt to get away from them. The word of a defendant doesn't mean a whole lot.

Doesn't matter. He told us - up to us to disprove it. Until we disprove it, his word is what is. There's stuff all over the story about how he told teachers, parents, tried avoiding the kid...Maybe we can't prove 100% that he legitimately tried to avoid it, but there's more evidence to support that than not.

On another note...

We need to really do about with the words "Bully" and "schoolyard".

Bullying = ASSAULT. Bully = ASSAILANT

There are no schoolyard fights. There are FIGHTS. You are ASSAULTED on the playground. You defend yourself from your assailant.

As someone who's been bullied, there's a very REAL threat going on there. Yeah, hindsight is 20/20, but until you've been in that kid's shoes, you can't begin to judge him as a murderer.