Another bullying related death, this time the victim is all right.

[SkullKing]

We've had multiple people post about how they could have or would have done it given the opportunity back then.

And yet not one of them expressed that they wish they had done it.

All they said was that when you lose control you can't judge what is "excessive force"


And GK is right, even if some of us do have personal feelings on this, all our arguments are based on things that were expressly mentioned in the article and/or court documents. Yours are not.

You saying that he didn´t try to get away when he did, that he shoud have made the adults aware of the situation when he did made them aware.

Saying that the word of the defendant doesn´t mean much, when it was the word of the defendant and several witnesses

Saying that the kid wasn't justified in fearing grievous bodilly harm, when surronded by an agressive assailant and a hostile mob. Even when you know first hand the damage an unarmed person can do.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Yeah, back then. Back then, I was a different person. In a way, I did do what this kid did; I brought a sharp pair of scissors to school. But not to stab any of the bullies; to go into the loos at break and cut myself. But if I was more extroverted than introverted, I could well see why someone might be in fear of their life and bring something to defend themselves with.

Now tho, I don't wish I'd killed the bullies. I don't want to kill them now. Now, I just think that they were obviously pathetic bitches who got their kicks picking on someone they deemed weaker... and they got their comeuppance once I proved that little theory to be wrong.

I can look back on my school days with complete detachment. I moved on a long time ago and don't dwell on it at all, cuz it doesn't matter any more.

[Nyoibo]

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

Premeditation, lack of provocation or absence of threat.

I ignored it do to irrelevance. Post it again if you like, murder is still murder. Based on the information given, him being in mortal danger is very questionable. An ass kicking? Definitely. But in danger of being killed? Unlikely. I don't even see evidence of an ass beating so bad that he'd be in the hospital. But then again none of us were there so I'm trying to go with the evidence we have, not what we imagine happened.;

Sorry, it's not irrelevant, neither the state of Florida nor the judge thought it was irrelevant either. You're right, we weren't there, so how exactly do you know "him being in mortal danger is very questionable. An ass kicking? Definitely. But in danger of being killed? Unlikely. I don't even see evidence of an ass beating so bad that he'd be in the hospital."?

None, but I'm not debating law, am I? I'm debating the fact that this kid murdered someone

Actually you are, he was found not guilty of murder, yet you insist that he is a murderer, you're arguing against the lawful ruling of the court.

I said he didn't make any attempt to get away from the situation. Which he didn't. Getting off the bus at a different stop doesn't qualify as avoiding the fight in the first place.

Um, hang on, not going to the location of the fight doesn't count as avoiding it? What, pray tell does?

I'm not arguing that he was perfectly safe. I'm arguing that I know you can be beat to death. My friend's brother's situation was a life or death fight.

What makes the situation different pray tell?

[Nyoibo]

Just out of interest, does anyone have a link to the court documents or transcripts?

[Duelist925]

Maybe you should stop feeling the situation and actually analyze it. You guys are letting your feelings get in the way of figuring out the situation.

Several people smarter than myself have already pointed out just how wrong that statement is, so I'll leave it be.

I said he didn't make any attempt to get away from the situation. Which he didn't. Getting off the bus at a different stop doesn't qualify as avoiding the fight in the first place.

Bullshit. Then WHAT in your mind, constitutes trying to avoid a fight? He attempted to avoid the spot where he told the fight was going to be, and then, when the fight was forced into THAT location instead, he attempted to run. As GK said, this is from the COURT Documents. Not our minds.

I'm not arguing that he was perfectly safe. I'm arguing that I know you can be beat to death. My friend's brother's situation was a life or death fight. This kid's situation wasn't until he decided to bring a knife to school and stab someone that day.

Wait, so you KNOW that an unarmed assailant can beat someone to death, and yet you saying this kid, confronted with at least 4, according, again, to court documents, had NO cause to fear for his life?
...
Dude, are you even listening to yourself?

Have you ever been jumped by four people at once? I have, when I was 15. And I was afraid I was gonna wind up in the hospital at least. If a car hadn't driven by and scared them off, I WOULD have wound up in the hospital. If not worse.

Adrenaline is what kept him going. But when someone is stabbing you, you are fighting for your life. If it weren't for adrenaline, he wouldn't have even been able to fight for his life.

Bull. He was on autopilot, the kid was on autopilot. These are not trained killers, these are not soldiers, these are not cops. These are two kids, who WILL NOT react like a calm, rational adult.

Holy fuck, ADULTS don't act like calm rational adults during fights.

Clearly you don't understand the prerequisites for a school fight. The location is of no importance to it. It's about who and why and how. This wasn't outside some bar involving someone drunk with the intent of killing someone else. This was about just beating someone up. And before someone decides to be a smartass and say something along the lines of "assault is assault", no duh. I didn't say it wasn't assault, did I?

Clearly you don't realize, a fight is a fight. Oh wait, its a "school fight" right? That means its outside the bounds of law huh? What are the prerequisites then? I'd love to know what sets a school fight apart from a regular fight, and what makes it so special and above the law.

Because if its not above the law, or has no special laws devoted to it ITS JUST A FUCKING FIGHT. School or not. And if its a fight, then YES assault is assault, and should be treated as such by the law. And if thats the case, the kid was perfectly justified by the law in his actions, as proved by the court ruling.

This thread just reads like a bunch of people who are pissed that this kid got to do what they've always secretly wanted to do to the people who bullied them and never got over it instead of just learning from what happened in their childhood and continue on into adulthood.

Highly amusing, considering how much weight there is behind most of, say, GK's arguements, and how little weight other than your own opinions there is behind yours.

its people who think like you that let this shit go on until some kid snaps and decides to yes, bring a knife since NOT ONE SINGLE adult will help them, will listen to the fact that their being tortured on a daily basis. If one adult had listened to this kid, if one of the cops who'd forced him to school despite the fact that he was too scared to go had stopped to wonder WHY This kid was terrified of going to school, maybe the bully could have been punished in a non lethal way, and this would never have happened.

[Rageaholic]

(bolded for emphasis)

I think those against the kid don't realize how serious school bullying can be. People have been killed as a result of being beaten at school and that's not counting those who took their own lives. It could have easily been this kid who ended up dead as a result of the bully. And even if his life wasn't being threatened, I'd still be sympathetic. He did not ask to be constantly tormented, it was the bully who made the choice to do so. The knife may have been excessive, but hey, being hit in the head is pretty excessive too.

Think of it this way, if these were two adults, that would be considered assault, but when it's kids at school, it's "just a fight"? What's wrong with this picture?

[Rageaholic]

its people who think like you that let this shit go on until some kid snaps and decides to yes, bring a knife since NOT ONE SINGLE adult will help them, will listen to the fact that their being tortured on a daily basis. If one adult had listened to this kid, if one of the cops who'd forced him to school despite the fact that he was too scared to go had stopped to wonder WHY This kid was terrified of going to school, maybe the bully could have been punished in a non lethal way, and this would never have happened.

Holy shit the cops forced him to go to school anyway? I missed that part entirely. That's like sending a wife back to her abusive husband when she tries to run away. God damn it people need to start listening to kids and stop brushing them off. The stupid laws in this country give kids no rights so they have NO say in what environment they are put in. Even if their physical well being is threatened, the useless, piece of shit authority figures do nothing and in some cases take the side of the abusers (whether it's a parent or another classmate). Then when the kids finally snap and DO SOMETHING about their problem, THEY get punished, the VICTIMS. In other words, they are supposed to just take any crap dished out to them. STUPID STUPID SYSTEM.



I think this was a situation that since no one would put a stop to it, someone would have ended up dead. Better the bully die than the one who's just trying to get by.

[gremcint]

Aside from the knife, I've been in this exact situation, The kid was two years older and took martial arts and wrestling, he punched the other kid in the back of the head and the stabber said he felt light headed so this is no simple punch. He tried to leave basically he did defend himself, and honestly I say good for him. I can't count the number of times I told teachers or parents or other adults and nothing was done, not a damn fucking thing. What was the kid supposed to do, let them beat the shit out of him? That's what was going to happen, and it would happen again and again.


Change the people involved, a person gets on a city bus, someone has been harassing them before is on the bus with their friends and says "tonight we're gonna get you" they get off the bus a different than usual spot to avoid this person and that person follows them and attacks them the other person then draws a knife and stabs his assailant then runs.

Honestly I'd say good for them.

Someone is attacking me, this person has a vendetta against me and has been following and threatening me, I don't know when they're going to stop I don't know that they aren't going to beat me to death or hospitalize me and I made it clear I don't want to fight. That fucker is going down.

[HYHYBT]

None, but I'm not debating law, am I? I'm debating the fact that this kid murdered someone…

NOT fact. And a discussion over whether an act is murder or not necessarily is about law. If it is legal to kill someone in a given situation, then by definition doing so is not murder.

Despite everything you say, it seems pretty obvious that either you've read a totally different story, or else you just want it to be murder and are therefore flat-out denying every point anyone brings up that shows otherwise. And providing no reasons to do so more substantial than "nuh-uh."

[quote]I said he didn't make any attempt to get away from the situation. Which he didn't. Getting off the bus at a different stop doesn't qualify as avoiding the fight in the first place.[quote]Why doesn't it qualify as trying to avoid the fight?

I'm not arguing that he was perfectly safe. I'm arguing that I know you can be beat to death. My friend's brother's situation was a life or death fight. This kid's situation wasn't until he decided to bring a knife to school and stab someone that day.

On what, precisely, are you basing the declaration that his situation wasn't life and death, much less the more relevant question of whether he reasonably thought it was? You so far have given NOTHING that fits, other than saying it just wasn't or trivializing school fights (which it wasn't, and which you are treating as if they were different than any other kind while simultaneously saying they aren't; just as you treat this as if this sort of fight cannot lead to death even while admitting you know a counterexample.)

Trying again: what, specifically, does its being a "school fight" change that makes it safe? If your answer is still nothing, then there's nothing making this NOT a life or death situation.

[gremcint]

just because a fight happens at school means it's ok?

[Eisa]

I'm glad that he wasn't branded a murderer. That sounds like self-defense to me. Just because it happens at school or because 'kids will be kids,' doesn't mean it's ok. :/

I was bullied a lot in elementary school, mostly just completely socially isolated as being unfit to speak to other humans (and my teacher told me that I needed to "be more social." Yep, I'll get right on that. It's not like my whole fucking class can't stand to speak to me or anything), but there was one girl who called me fat, stupid, ugly, and a freak of nature every day. Constantly berating and belittling me. I think the only reason I didn't snap was because of other things going on where--if I was gonna snap at anyone, it wasn't gonna be that bitch. And I didn't fear for my life from her.

Although actually...perhaps better comparison. My younger sister. We used to call each other names, and that was bad enough, she would follow me around calling me the worst things she could think of, anything to hurt me. If I retaliated, I would get in trouble with my parents for picking on her. She also was very physically violent. She'd kick me, hit me, punch me, scratch me so hard it instantly drew blood, once kicked me in the eye, sprained my wrists multiple times, almost broke my fingers, choked me with a plastic bag around my neck, and tried to throttle me and slam my head against the wall. She almost killed me. I don't know if she actually realized it, but my vision was going black and I couldn't breathe.

Many of those things happened in front of my parents. It was always passed off as "sibling rivalry" and I should "try not to provoke her." And if I fought back, I got in trouble because I was older.

To this DAY, I have no idea how I did not snap and beat the fuck out of her to make her leave me alone.

[Rageaholic]

Someone is attacking me, this person has a vendetta against me and has been following and threatening me, I don't know when they're going to stop I don't know that they aren't going to beat me to death or hospitalize me and I made it clear I don't want to fight. That fucker is going down.

And from what I read on this case, this is exactly what happened.

And getting off at a different stop IS trying to avoid the fight. It didn't work because the fuckheads got off anyway and continued to harass him. It should NOT have been his problem in the first place, but because of the bullies insistance on targeting him, they put him in a situation where he had to act. I am not advocating killing anyone, but considering it was self defense, the judge was right to go easy on him.

[Peppergirl]

I know this is injecting further emotion into this, but I find myself wondering what our very own Plaidman would have thought about this incident.

I wish he were here to tell us.

Perhaps if he hadn't been bullied so much, he would be.

Yeah, I fucking went there.

[Gravekeeper]

Yeah, I fucking went there.

I imagine, as a few posters have indicated here, that when you reach this particular level of cornered despair, the only two options you see are yourself or the bully. Either you remove yourself, or you do something desperate to protect yourself.

[Gravekeeper]

Just out of interest, does anyone have a link to the court documents or transcripts?

Here are the court documents of the ruling in PDF form if anyone is interested. Its a bit lengthy but very specific on the details of the lead up.