Another bullying related death, this time the victim is all right.

[linguist]

Eactly what set of conditions must be met for people to be ok with self defense?

simple enough, and if you'd ever bothered to pay attention you would know: we're ok with self defense when it's proportional to the threat. a punch does not deserve death. harsh words do not deserve death. if he'd thrown punches in return, i'd be fine with it. if he'd pulled the knife as a threat, i'd be fine. i'd even be fine with a single stab, which is likely all that would have been necessary to end the altercation. but 12? that's far beyond proportional.

i feel for everyone in this: the family of the alleged bully for the loss of their child, and the alleged victim for the psychological damage that comes with taking another human life. not to mention that now he and his family will likely be forced to move and start over elsewhere, because the person he killed has friends and family that he will have to face everyday now.

[kibbles]

I agree..12 seems to indicate a special type of derangement IMO. And I don't think this will send a message to bullies..this will send a message that if anyone feels either bit harassed at all then it is ok to reach for the knife or gun. Heck even if it would have been a single gun shot..I would have been more inclined to believe heat of the moment self-defense. But 12 stab wounds?

Someone needs to get to the appeal court ASAP! Hopefully that will happen.

[Skelly]

From what I've read, bully got what he deserved.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I believe I can offer some insight here.

I was bullied badly in the Eight Grade (Age 13) to the point I nearly committed suicide as I felt that may truly be my only way out (the only way to stop the abuse).

I told my parents, who in turn stood with me and we went to the school administrators. We talked to the Vice Principal FOUR TIMES over the course of several months and nothing ever changed. I was still tormented endlessly.

I didn't go to the police because a) I thought it would make things worse and b) based on my experiences with the VP, I was feeling like authority figures weren't really concerned with helping me all that much.

I should stop here and note there was one teacher who really cared about me and stood up for me. Bless her heart wherever she is now.

Now here's the really relevant part: Back then I could have seen myself killing one of the bullies simply because I felt, given the level of abuse, that their actions represented a potential threat to my life and I believe I would have been within my legal rights to react in kind.

I know it may be hard for some of you to understand how bullying can get so bad it can be "life threatening" so to speak, but it can. I've been there, I've lived through it and I have absolutely no desire to go back to that place.

My experiences changed me...forever.

Unless you've walked that path, it's difficult to understand the mindset of someone who has. I can understand what this boy was thinking and feeling when he did what he did...and I think the Judge was right to rule as he did.

[Andara Bledin]

I know, personally, at least 6 people who were bullied in school until the day they snapped and beat their attackers to within an inch of their lives. Two of those were big guys who were picked on specifically because they didn't fight. One committed the crime of being white in a hispanic neighborhood. One was a metal head in a school full of preppy types. The last two were geeks, with one being a diabetic as well.

I figure that the only reason none of them ended up killing their tormenters was because they'd never been given fore-warning that a fight was going to take place on a specific day - it was just the same thing, day after day, until it became too much.

Interestingly enough, most of those stories have the bully sucker-punching their victim from behind as the catalyst.

All but one sent the bully to the hospital, most of those likely requiring facial reconstruction to some degree. The one that didn't (my brother) threw his attacker into a bank of lockers and used a submission hold on him. I suspect the fact that he knew how to fight and win was the only reason he didn't go postal like the other five, who were all more pacifist than he.

This all could have been avoided if the adults involved had done a damn thing to stop it. But they all dropped the ball, and if anyone is guilty of anything, they are.

A former co-worker has a son who is autistic. He was bullied and attacked practically daily. She, rather than blithely and blindly send her child into a dangerous situation sued the school district, who was then required to provide door to door service to get her child to and from school every day until he graduated.

It's a shame and a tragedy that so many parents aren't willing to go to bat for the safety of their own children.

^-.-^

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

It's a shame and a tragedy that so many parents aren't willing to go to bat for the safety of their own children.

^-.-^

Which is why I am very glad mine were. Unfortunately the school admin were such idiots that my parents efforts largely failed.

Their emotional support was critical though. That helped me get through some very dark days.

[HYHYBT]

On 12 stabs...

All right. So more than one of them would have been fatal by itself. That's irrelevant. What matters is not whether he would eventually die from the wound, but whether it *immediately* stopped him. If a non-serious wound got him to stop right then and there, then continuing to stab him might well be murder. But is there any proof that's what happened? NO. Is there even proof that the first of the fatal wounds stopped him immediately? No. So why do a couple of you, even here, call it murder?

[Anthony K. S.]

As expected, some people have argued that stabbing the other person 12 times goes beyond what can be considered self-defense.

Some have stated that a single stab wound could be viewed as a "heat of the moment" act of self-defense, but not 12.


I find myself reminded of a case in which a woman was charged with murder after stabbing a man 80 times. The defense lawyer claimed self-defense, saying the man had attacked the woman.

The prosecuting attorney believed that this case was a certain conviction.

Apparently, in this prosecutor's mind, it was impossible to stab somebody 80 times in self-defense. After all, once you stab somebody 10 or 15 times, they would no longer be a threat. Therefore, the prosecutor believed, the self-defense claim was ridiculous.

And he expected the jury to view it the same way. In fact, it never even seemed to occur to him that they might not.

Apart from the fact that the man was stabbed 80 times, the prosecutor didn't really bother to put on any case. He assumed that once the jury counted out how long it takes to stab somebody 80 times, they would surely convict.

The prosecutor was flabbergasted when the jury returned a verdict of "Not Guilty."

As it turned out, the jury did not agree that the self-defense claim was inconsistent with the fact that the man was stabbed 80 times.

The jury believed that if the defendant was in mortal fear for her life, then she could not be expected to be thinking rationally. They found it plausible that when she stabbed the man, believing he would kill her otherwise, that she went into a sort of "autopilot," and just continued stabbing purely on instinct and overpowering emotion, even long after the man was dead.

In the end, the jury found the self-defense claim to be plausible, and since the prosecution never presented any other evidence, they felt they had no choice but to acquit.


When I was a kid, I was sometimes picked on, but there was never any real threat involved, so I cannot claim to understand this situation.

I am, however, willing to take the word of the folks here who have argued from experience that it is genuinely possible to fear for your life in these circumstances.

And if this boy sincerely felt he was in that kind of danger, then I think a self-defense argument is quite viable.

Just like the jury I mentioned, I do not believe that a person in fear for his life can be expected to be thinking rationally, nor do I believe that the number of stab wounds has any relevance to whether it was self-defense or not.

[kibbles]

Because anyone who stabs someone 12 times is not right in the head, is a murderer, and has no business being out in society.

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

[Bloodsoul]

I've (thankfully) never found myself in this kind of situation, but my gut feeling is that, in the heat of the moment, you're no longer thinking clearly (if not altogether suffering blind rage), thus making it more difficult to control the number of stab wounds inflicted.

EDIT: Seems I've been ninja'd.

[kibbles]

And the jury that let the women go..well words cannot describe them IMO.

[SkullKing]

I'd love to have been there to actually hear the case, but from the way it reads, he definitely got away with murder. Stabbing somebody that many times? Hard time believing that it wasn't excessive self-defense. I got shoved around in middle school and high school but you didn't see me stabbing anyone.

You wouldn´t have seen me stabbing anyone either, but when I got in a fight what I did was often considered "excessive".

It is not a case of someone skilled with knifes calmly stabbing someone twelve times. It is about someone who was pushed to the limit and going balls out.

I would wager that he didn´t realized how many times he had actually stabbed the other boy until after it had happened.

I know that hapenned to me. I was very quiet, peacefull, and shy.

I had pretty much all the typical characteristics of a bullying victim exeps for physical weakness(I was actually very strong for my age, but was horrible at sports, and those who bullied me were good at it)

One day I fought back, I went berserk.

This is not a figure of speech. Many people say that without understanding. I cannot think of another good enough word.

I went berserk.

I agree..12 seems to indicate a special type of derangement IMO

The "derangement" in question is calle ddesperation, and it was caused by the bully

But now I see him as nothing but a murderer and I would be totally understanding if everyone who knew him now avoided him. I know I wouldn't want to associate with someone like that, nor would I want anyone I care about to associate with a known killer.

I wouldn´t want to associate with you.

and frankly it seem like you are not thinking this trough. You are acting as if he deliberately stabbed 12 times, he didn´t. He wasn´t in a rational situation.

You say that you could accept if he had punched back.

All that would have accomplished was making the bully angry.

He tried to run

He tried appealing to authority.

he decided to fight back

Fighting back unarmed would be suicidal so he armed himself.

Since he wasn´t a trained fighter he wasn´t able to fight in a calm and controlled manner, he fought by channeling his desperation.

I also have the impression that you understimate the damage an unarmed person can do, if he has the intent to and Strenght/know-how on his side.

[SkullKing]

Because anyone who stabs someone 12 times is not right in the head, is a murderer, and has no business being out in society.

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

It would take knowingly killing or causing someone to die, outside of a self defense situation.

And yes, I consider people who take money from services that could have saved people as murderers(I.E. politicians who rob money )

[kibbles]

I wouldn´t want to associate with you.

Don't worry, I wouldn't want to associate with you either, but I was unaware that what was supposed to be a debate has now reached personal levels??

I believe this will set a dangerous precedent where people will get away with murder because they "felt" a certain way. I think this case will only serve to hurt real victims.

[Skelly]

Because anyone who stabs someone 12 times is not right in the head, is a murderer, and has no business being out in society.

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

Bollocks. He felt himself to be in danger of being killed or severely beaten, and took the necessary steps to prevent this. That he happened to stab him 12 times instead of once or twice is of no importance. I'm in with the "whatever it takes" morality. If I need to stab someone one hundred times to guard my own life, so be it. The person to blame for the bully dying is ultimately the bully. Push someone too far, and they might snap, resulting in the bully ending up hospitalized, or in the local morgue.

As for what it would take for me to call it murder? It actually being murder, which it isn't.