Another bullying related death, this time the victim is all right.

[SkullKing]

I believe this will set a dangerous precedent where people will get away with murder because they "felt" a certain way. I think this case will only serve to hurt real victims.

I believe this ^^^ is a valid criticism.

As for personal levels, I am sorry. But I laid my critiscism on the way you are analyzing a situation, and all I said was that I wouldn´t associate with you.

It reached personal levels when you said you "I wouldn´t associate with him." you inserted yourself in the situation.

It is not that you are a bad person, just incompatible in a way. And just because what he did bothers you( and you are perfectly entitled to not associating with anyone for whatever reason you want). That does not make him a murderer.

He reacted to an extreme situation in an extreme way that makes you unconfortable. that does not mean he is a murderer and should be punished.

You do not want him near you, that does not means he deserves to be locked away.

whether you would want to associate with him or not is irrelevant.

[Greenday]

What could he possibly expect to be doing with a knife? A knife is a weapon used to kill. He had to know there was quite a fair chance of using it and that someone dying was a very real possibility. Makes Murder II a very viable charge in my opinion. He clearly didn't go that day with the intent of getting away.

[RedRoseSpiral]

Actually Greenday, he did. He left the bus several stops before the location of the fight was suppose to be, and he also tried walking away after the first punch. What else was he suppose to do?

[SkullKing]

What could he possibly expect to be doing with a knife? A knife is a weapon used to kill. He had to know there was quite a fair chance of using it and that someone dying was a very real possibility. Makes Murder II a very viable charge in my opinion. He clearly didn't go that day with the intent of getting away.

I didn´t say he didn´t decide to stab him. I just said he didn´t decide to stab him 12 times.

I was arguing against the argument of 12 stabs being exessive, and a smaller number being acceptable.

I shouold have been more clear, sorry.

[Andara Bledin]

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

How about pre-meditation? You know, the thing that is legally required for there to even be a murder case called. In point of fact, the charge against Saavedra was Aggravated Manslaughter, not murder of any kind.

Florida law is clear in that you are allowed to use deadly force if you have reasonable expectation that you will suffer great bodily harm or death; it explicitly states that use of a deadly weapon even if you don't think you're going to die is protected.

What could he possibly expect to be doing with a knife?

He had a knife so that if he couldn't get away, he wouldn't be beaten up just like every other time. He didn't take the knife with the intention of stabbing anyone; he took the knife so that he had an option beyond just getting away or getting beaten.

He clearly didn't go that day with the intent of getting away.

Provably false. He tried to get away. He wasn't allowed flight, so he switched to fight.

Testimony from last year indicates that Saavedra, who was of similar height and build but suffered some type of learning disability not specified in the news coverage, not only got off early to avoid his stop, but that the other students, including one that was the instigator who pushed Nuno to attack Saavedra, formed a ring around them, closing them in together. Nuno punched Saavedra in the back of the head. Saavedra turned and pushed Nuno away and backed up himself. When Nuno continued to be aggressive, Saavedra stabbed him, stopped, then ran. The other kids all said it looked as though Saavedra had punched Nuno about five times and that Nuno then sat up and called for the others to give chase before it became apparent what had actually happened.

Nuno's parents claim that he wasn't a bully, and it's possible that he hadn't been until he gave in to the urging of the others in the clique he was part of. One person's testimony about the fight includes a statement that even Nuno didn't want to fight that afternoon, however, only that one reported that he heard it. Whether Nuno did or didn't, he still chose to start the fight that ended with him losing his life.

^-.-^

[Skelly]

Nuno's parents claim that he wasn't a bully, and it's possible that he hadn't been until he gave in to the urging of the others in the clique he was part of. One person's testimony about the fight includes a statement that even Nuno didn't want to fight that afternoon, however, only that one reported that he heard it. Whether Nuno did or didn't, he still chose to start the fight that ended with him losing his life.

^-.-^

Every article I read about criminals getting shot while robbing, breaking & entering or assaulting, there's always a pack of family members who'll go on and on about how the deceased was such a good boy who was turning his life around and how the store/homeowner/honest citizen who defended him/herself is a big meanie for shooting their little darling angel .

[Mytical]

Ok..I would never hurt a fly willingly. In fact, I feel bad about harming insects. However, I've been in a situation..where if there was a weapon nearby..I don't know what would have happened.

A person can only be pushed so far. Some have a boundary much farther then others..but even they have a point where they just can not be pushed further. I've snapped. Literally to the point where I lost control of what I was doing. I do not even remember what occurred myself, it had to be told to me by my brother. I hurt people, as in hospitalized people. Got jumped by 3 teens (16), I was 14 at the time, but still a 'big boy'. They knew I didn't fight back...normally. One minute I was on the ground being kicked, punched, and other wise abused..the next I was standing..one of them wasn't. Another was running as if Lucifer himself had just appeared, and the other was holding his arm looking at me as if I was Lucifer himself. The one boy's arm was broken, the one on the ground had broken ribs.

Had their been a weapon..and I had gotten ahold of it. I could have very well done much worse. So yes, I can understand the 'autopilot' and the boy stabbing somebody 12 times. You just want the pain to stop, you want the attacker to get away from you..and you will do whatever it takes to make it happen. If you have never been there, you may never understand. I understand. All too well.

[SkullKing]

How about pre-meditation? You know, the thing that is legally required for there to even be a murder case called.

I think second degree murder is killing someone without pre-meditation

I think intent-to kill is necessary.

He didn´t want to kill Nuno, just protect himself.

I could be wrong though, I don´t know anything about law.

You just want the pain to stop, you want the attacker to get away from you..and you will do whatever it takes to make it happen. If you have never been there, you may never understand. I understand. All too well.

QFT

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

I remember how I felt back when I was bullied. Let me summarize what was going on: I was being tormented constantly and the school administrators were doing nothing to help me.

That means that if the situation was to stop somehow, it would have to be stopped by me. I could do this either by taking the bully out of the picture...or taking myself out.

If I took myself out, I would in effect be giving the bullies what they wanted: My total destruction.

If I took one of them out, I would still be alive but most likely facing criminal charges for my actions.

But you know what? I still considered doing it...HEAVILY. Why? Because I thought it might be better to rot away in a prison cell than have to be continually tormented by bullies.

I was at a place where I wanted to abuse to STOP and I didn't really care how. If that meant I had to stab someone 12 times or put a bullet in their head or throw them off a bridge, than so be it. In my mind I figured that hurting the bully wasn't enough and the only way to truly ensure my own well being was to make it so the bully could never hurt me ever again.

I was like this kid. I tried to avoid them, I tried to stay out of their way. I tried everything...and they kept coming. You just, you get to a point where drastic measures suddenly don't seem so drastic.

Hell, I'm almost shaking as a I write this. I'm not an angry person, I don't fly into a rage easily...but back then I felt I was nearly ready to kill to save myself. It really had become that severe.

[SkullKing]

I know what you mean.

I don´t think this situation is easily understood by those who didn´t experience something similar.

[BlaqueKatt]

I've read some other articles on this, and the "12 stab wounds" is actually only from Dylan's mother only, several witnesses that got off the bus to watch the fight said 3 or 4, and after Dylan dropped he instructed his friends to "get him". As for the knife, it was a standard pocket knife, as in a swiss army knife type thing. Also it was four against one, and the four yelled to Jorge, "today's the day we're going to get you." And as far as Dylan being unarmed, his father taught martial arts, and had instructed his son in them, so he was "armed".

"It's going to be a very clear-cut case," Day(Jorge's lawyer) said. "People have a right to defend themselves. I don't think it's the public's right to say what's reasonable in that person's mind."

Armchair quarterbacking....

This woman is being hailed as a hero for killing a man, she loaded a shotgun, called 911, asked if it was ok to shoot him, and waited for him to break through the door, then shot him.

Self-defense is usually defined as "protecting yourself from immediate physical danger". I'd say being outnumbered, and being physically assaulted by someone who has training in how to harm you is "immediate physical danger".

[Glados]

I agree that he was in danger. People need to think about what they are doing when they inflict violence. It is not unreasonable force for someone to use deadly force if they are threatened. In that situation, you cannot know for certain what the aggressor will do/ is capable of doing and a person must protect themselves.

[Greenday]

This woman[/URL] is being hailed as a hero for killing a man, she loaded a shotgun, called 911, asked if it was ok to shoot him, and waited for him to break through the door, then shot him.

Self-defense is usually defined as "protecting yourself from immediate physical danger". I'd say being outnumbered, and being physically assaulted by someone who has training in how to harm you is "immediate physical danger".

She was well within her rights to shoot a violent intruder who probably was going to either rape her and/or murder her and her child so they'd get away with the crime. She did the right thing.

He had a knife so that if he couldn't get away, he wouldn't be beaten up just like every other time. He didn't take the knife with the intention of stabbing anyone; he took the knife so that he had an option beyond just getting away or getting beaten.

Provably false. He tried to get away. He wasn't allowed flight, so he switched to fight.

Says you. I say he brought a knife with the intent to stab someone. Sounds pretty premeditated to me.

If he didn't want confrontation, he had a number of options available to him. Call the cops and tell them he was in immediate danger. Call his parents. Call the school.

[fireheart17]

I'd love to have been there to actually hear the case, but from the way it reads, he definitely got away with murder. Stabbing somebody that many times? Hard time believing that it wasn't excessive self-defense.

I would probably be more inclined to argue that he went on autopilot afterwards, or the more accurate term would be a dissociative state.

And I don't think this will send a message to bullies..this will send a message that if anyone feels either bit harassed at all then it is ok to reach for the knife or gun. I would have been more inclined to believe heat of the moment self-defense. But 12 stab wounds?

Bullies have already reached for knives to kill others deliberately.

Because anyone who stabs someone 12 times is not right in the head, is a murderer, and has no business being out in society.

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

Premeditation and planning as someone said. From the article, he had the knife and showed it, but he had no plans to follow Nuno off the bus. Nuno actually followed HIM. He tried to walk away. Also from a number of the comments, Nuno was trained in martial arts.

Actually Greenday, he did. He left the bus several stops before the location of the fight was suppose to be, and he also tried walking away after the first punch. What else was he suppose to do?

See my comments on Kibbles previous post.

He had a knife so that if he couldn't get away, he wouldn't be beaten up just like every other time. He didn't take the knife with the intention of stabbing anyone; he took the knife so that he had an option beyond just getting away or getting beaten.


Provably false. He tried to get away. He wasn't allowed flight, so he switched to fight.

Testimony from last year indicates that Saavedra, who was of similar height and build but suffered some type of learning disability not specified in the news coverage, not only got off early to avoid his stop, but that the other students, including one that was the instigator who pushed Nuno to attack Saavedra, formed a ring around them, closing them in together. Nuno punched Saavedra in the back of the head. Saavedra turned and pushed Nuno away and backed up himself. When Nuno continued to be aggressive, Saavedra stabbed him, stopped, then ran. The other kids all said it looked as though Saavedra had punched Nuno about five times and that Nuno then sat up and called for the others to give chase before it became apparent what had actually happened.

Nuno's parents claim that he wasn't a bully, and it's possible that he hadn't been until he gave in to the urging of the others in the clique he was part of. One person's testimony about the fight includes a statement that even Nuno didn't want to fight that afternoon, however, only that one reported that he heard it. Whether Nuno did or didn't, he still chose to start the fight that ended with him losing his life.

thank you for summing the whole thing up.

[Greenday]

So, by the logic in this thread, I would have been justified bringing a gun to school and shooting a bully if he hit me. Totally legit since it's self-defense and all. Who cares whether my life was actually in danger or not? It's justified cause bullies need to be stopped.

Look, I've been bullied into clinical depression, but even despite that, I think people are letting their hate for the bullies of their past put them into a blind rage. Stabbing someone to death is not a legit way to deal with bullying.