Another bullying related death, this time the victim is all right.

[AdminAssistant]

And actually, if you read AdminAssistant's posts, she's pretty much on the same page as you.

Well, I actually agree with the self-defense ruling. But I would also like to see the other kid expelled and brought up on weapons charges for bringing a deadly weapon to school. And, for the record, I'd also like to see all the bully's little friends expelled for instigating the whole thing. I just dislike the attitude that the bully had it coming...that bullies deserve terrible things to happen to them. I think bullies should be punished, and punished severely, but they don't fucking deserve to die.

Police forced the kid back to school because, by law, those under 16 have to be at school. If the kid knew there was a fight that day, then he could have had Mom pick him up from school. Could have gone to the principal again, or the superintendent. The security officers that so many schools have these days. Hell, call fucking 911. Instead, his line of thinking was, "Bring a knife." What did he expect to do with it, if not stab someone?

So, to summarize, I agree with the self-defense ruling, but the fact that this kid is shrugging off what should be federal weapons charges is bullshit.

[SkullKing]

Why, federal weapons charge?

Since there is no law to carrying the knife, woudn´t this be a matter of the school allowing it or not?

[Duelist925]

Well, I actually agree with the self-defense ruling. But I would also like to see the other kid expelled and brought up on weapons charges for bringing a deadly weapon to school. And, for the record, I'd also like to see all the bully's little friends expelled for instigating the whole thing. I just dislike the attitude that the bully had it coming...that bullies deserve terrible things to happen to them. I think bullies should be punished, and punished severely, but they don't fucking deserve to die.

I can definately agree with this, except for the expulsion--I do think he should change schools though, more due to socialogical reason and the stress both the other students, and the bullies family, might heap on him.

Police forced the kid back to school because, by law, those under 16 have to be at school. If the kid knew there was a fight that day, then he could have had Mom pick him up from school. Could have gone to the principal again, or the superintendent. The security officers that so many schools have these days. Hell, call fucking 911. Instead, his line of thinking was, "Bring a knife." What did he expect to do with it, if not stab someone?

I would agree with this except...why in the nine hells would he? Why contact the people who have been letting this go one for so long? If he's already gone to the principal, why would he bother to go again when experience has shown him it wont do anything? Why go to any part of the school system that has been allowing the abuse he's been suffering? Why call 911 when the last time he had any experience with cops, he almost got in trouble with them, and they forced him back into the same environment?

He had no reason to think any adult would be of any help--because, sadly, no adult WAS of any help. So why would he consider contacting one when its been proven useless for him?

As far as his line of thinking...This was a scared kid. And what this was was the last ditch effort of a scared kid to defend himself, rather than get a potentially brutal beating. He didnt sit at home to plot to kill this bully like some psychopath.

So, to summarize, I agree with the self-defense ruling, but the fact that this kid is shrugging off what should be federal weapons charges is bullshit.

I think Federal charges are a bit of a stretch. Its a pocket knife--not an uzi.

[BlaqueKatt]

If the kid knew there was a fight that day, then he could have had Mom pick him up from school. Could have gone to the principal again, or the superintendent. The security officers that so many schools have these days. Hell, call fucking 911. Instead, his line of thinking was, "Bring a knife." What did he expect to do with it, if not stab someone?

this is conjecture as it isn't in the court documents:

But you know his mom had vehicle and wasn't say working?
What can a SCHOOL official do against anything off property?
911 may or may not have done anything, I've had a stalker sit outside my house with a knife scratching my window and was told "the police can't do anything unless they actually harm you"-so yeah...

And there are many uses for a knife, other than stabbing, especially as it was a small pocket knife, I use one of those to clean my nails-the blade is 2" long, I have no expectations of stabbing anyone with it, it's a particularly useful tool, as it also has a screwdriver and a scissors. I use it almost daily and have never stabbed anyone with it.

[HYHYBT]

Well, I'm seeing apples and orange comparisons, people using guilt trips as an argument. Explain to me why I should continue putting energy into it.

You're kidding, right? YOU ignore (or deny) every fact anyone brings up, with no more substantial basis than "huh-uh!" for doing so. YOU declare that the facts in the news article and the court documents aren't really what happened. YOU declare that getting off the bus at a different stop and then trying to run off doesn't count as an attempt to avoid a fight. You treat carrying a pocketknife as proof of intent to murder, despite, I am quite certain, arguing elsewhere on this site that people ought to carry guns for defense. YOU say things like it's "just" a school fight, and claim (without providing any attempt at justification) that he was in no danger, even while simultaneously admitting that such fights can lead to death and are no different than any other.

And then YOU stomp off in a huff when people dare to disagree and ask you to present actual reasoning, rather than simply declaring it to be murder, period, I'm right, end of discussion.

Are you feeling well?

[tropicsgoddess]

If somebody's gonna use force on me, I'll use force on them back but if they're gonna threaten my life, ya damn right I'll use deadly force! That kid defended himself and I'm glad the judge sided with him. The family and friends still have the blinders on to the fact that the bully ATTACKED the victim in the first place. Sucks for them that the bully is dead but again the victim defended himself and that's it.

[DrFaroohk]

Can the school really do anything about the knife? Seems like getting in trouble for a weapon means you get caught with the weapon - not get caught for doing it yesterday.

Should he have had the knife? Should the school have tried harder to create an environment where he didn't need the knife?

Maybe he could've done even more to avoid the fight, but does he have to? I would think after all the informing he'd done to the proper authorities, AND try to actually be in a different location than the fight (how can you avoid anything much better than that!?) he's done his due diligence. He wasn't looking for a fight and definitely didn't want to start one, and tried his damndest to avoid it.

And, I'm just happy someone stood up for himself and made out ok. I was one of the ones in trouble no matter what. If I got beat up, I must've deserved it. If I fought back, I need to control myself better. If someone harasses me, I need to let it go. He's bigger? Irrelevent! I'm bigger? The entire point! Age? Only matters if I'm older.

And then people wonder "Why do you feel like everyone's against you?" Well, let's see..if it looks like a duck, and acts like a duck...it's like those people claiming they're not racist, but then say racist things. "No one is against you...it's just that all rules and decisions are based around whatever falls the least in your favor. And they change inconsistently to suit our current needs, which happen to coincide with screwing you in some way. But no worries, no one's againt you."

Fucking bullies. That kid would probably have grown up into an even bigger bully, the type who would be a high school principal and condone the bullying and screw the little guy. Or he'll be a drug addict and suck the life out of everyone who comes near him. Good riddance on a piece of shit human being.

[Beckpatton]

Because anyone who stabs someone 12 times is not right in the head, is a murderer, and has no business being out in society.

I am curious to what would get some people to call it murder?

I would call it murder if he had brought the knife to school, walked up to the bully and just stabbed him. That requires premeditation.

What happened in this case was not murder, he did everything he could to avoid this bully. Reported him to his parents, the school, tried to avoid him, got off the bus early, skipped school etc

The bully followed him, attacked him from behind and the kid protected himself. Pure and simple! Was the kid just supposed to stand there and take it? Do you think at the time of the attack he was thinking, "I better not use this knife in case I kill him" or do you think he was thinking "Stop! Stop! Stop!! Can't take it no more, I'm gonna die!!".

Sure he stabbed him 12 times, but the article doesn't say that he stabbed him once, he went down, and he continued to stab him with glee. For all we know the bully didn't even feel the first few stabs, probably thought they were just punches, which would have angered him more and he would have kept attacking. 12 stabs could happen very quickly! Plus like others said he probably just went into a "fight or flight autopilot" type mentality.

I am sad that this had to happen at all, but I do not blame the victim for what he did. Just how long was he supposed to take it? Until he ended up dead?

Sadly with a lot of bullying cases these days, someone does end up dead, usually the victim, and usually at their own hand. Shouldn't their bullies be held accountable? Shouldn't they be charged with murder?

[kibbles]

The Westside boys did.

"Golden approached Johnson with a plan to scare some of the people who had picked on him at school..."

Just as a deterrent, I'm sure. Just to scare them. I mean, they didn't really mean to kill 4 kids and a teacher. It was just an accident. They were just kids. Right??

Look, I really don't care about how hard it was to reach out or that the police weren't cooperative or that the parents didn't realize how hard it was. There are still a thousand better ways to handle a situation than to bring a fucking weapon on to school property with the deliberate intention to bring harm. "I was picked on" or "I was bullied" is not a free pass and it's not an excuse.

I got to agree with you 100% Now in my opinion I believe he deserved some sort of manslaughter charge. But even if people do not agree with that..how about the weapons charge? Students have been suspended for having nail clippers..and this "victim" gets away with bringing a weapon?? And there have been constant mentions of how this wasn't premeditated..well I never said it was and premeditation is not needed for a manslaughter charge IMO

[Gravekeeper]

Sure he stabbed him 12 times, but the article doesn't say that he stabbed him once, he went down, and he continued to stab him with glee. For all we know the bully didn't even feel the first few stabs, probably thought they were just punches, which would have angered him more and he would have kept attacking. 12 stabs could happen very quickly! Plus like others said he probably just went into a "fight or flight autopilot" type mentality.

The court documents say he stabbed him, but the Bully kept punching him, so he kept stabbing. They were both on autopilot by the sounds of it. Also, only two of the stabs were fatal injuries and only because they nicked the heart. This was just a pocket knife, not a hunting knife. Seeing as the Bully still ordered his friends after the kid even after he realised he'd been injured, I don't think the Bully ever realised the extent of the damage.

Judging from the court documents, they were underhand stabs to the stomach so they must have been grappling at the time. IE the Bully had a hold of him and was wailing on him so the kid just started flailing with the knife.

[wolfie]

Says you. I say he brought a knife with the intent to stab someone. Sounds pretty premeditated to me.

If he didn't want confrontation, he had a number of options available to him. Call the cops and tell them he was in immediate danger. Call his parents. Call the school.

By your "logic", anyone with a CCP is intending to kill someone. As for "call whoever", I didn't see anything that showed he had access to a phone, so realistically the only resource he could call was the school bus driver, who should already have been aware of the incidents going on in the bus. Even if he had access to a phone, on a previous occasion where he tried to avoid going into a situation that posed an immediate danger (due to the constant bullying, being present at school constituted an immediate danger), his parents called the cops, who proceeded to force him into that situation. School authorities had in the past done nothing to stop the bullying. You're saying that he should have gone to various people who, in the past, had either done nothing or who had acted in a manner counterproductinve to his safety?

This kid was obviously at the end of his rope and he certainly wasn't getting help from anywhere. His mom called the cops on him when he refused to go to school and had them physically escort him to school. He would avoid the bus on the way home, opting instead to walk a distant that would normally be a 30 minute drive. He frequently got off the bus before his stop just to try and avoid them. Even on the day of the fight, they taunted him the entire way on the bus while he tried to ignore them.

Only one point where I disagree with you. "Fight" implies both parties want to engage in violence (hockey fights and UFC are both fights). What the bully had intended was a one-sided, premeditated beating.

I'm not arguing that he was perfectly safe. I'm arguing that I know you can be beat to death.

This was about just beating someone up.

My friend's brother's situation was a life or death fight. This kid's situation wasn't until he decided to bring a knife to school and stab someone that day.

Adrenaline is what kept him going. But when someone is stabbing you, you are fighting for your life. If it weren't for adrenaline, he wouldn't have even been able to fight for his life.

First of all, be consistent. You say you know someone can be beaten to death, and then that this was just about beating someone up? In other words, that it was just about inflicting lethal force? Let's put the opposite spin on this:

Your friend's brother's situation was about just beating someone up.

The case in this thread was a life or death fight, and became so when a bigger, stronger individual with martial arts training decided to, without provocation, hit someone in the back of the head.

Adrenaline is what kept him going. But when someone is hitting you in the head and their allies block your retreat, you are fighting for your life. If it weren't for adrenaline, he wouldn't have even been able to fight for his life.

[Rantsylvania 6-5000]

Also, because I have no problem admitting when wrong, I'll admit that my 'yeah, I fucking went there' was out of line. Posting whilst mildly intoxicated is bad.

However, my feelings about Plaid remain the same. He was bullied relentlessly and I do find myself wondering if that played some part in his suicide. Unfortunately, we'll never know. I should have perhaps worded it better.

You were perfectly justified in saying that. Now I'm fucking going there, and I agree that bullying ultimately destroyed him.

I think a lot of people secretly admire bullies; they perceive them as powerful. Furthermore, anyone who takes sides with a bully is a goddamned sociopath.

[Panacea]

You were perfectly justified in saying that. Now I'm fucking going there, and I agree that bullying ultimately destroyed him.

I think a lot of people secretly admire bullies; they perceive them as powerful. Furthermore, anyone who takes sides with a bully is a goddamned sociopath.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but let me explain why.

Bullies are selective in who they choose as victims. The stereotype of the bully who picks on every one is rare and obvious. Many bullies are not perceived as bullies by their peers (as in this case) because bullies are often clever enough to hide the worst of their activities from anyone who is not a target of their violence.

I was bullied growing up; one of my worst bullies lived just up the street from me. Sometimes he would chase me home after getting off the school bus, but this was rare. Usually he'd do things when no one was looking, especially an adult. For example, he'd stick gum in my hair then laugh as I fought to get it out without cutting out a big gob of hair.

But he liked violence too. He beat me up if he could catch me alone and get away with it. But he was savvy enough to realize that getting caught meant trouble and a label. So he started to work through others.

Once, he picked another boy who was in the band with me to be his accomplice. This was a small, weak kid who had two choices: go along, or not go along and get beat himself. He went along.

Donald (the main bully) would egg this kid to ram his trumpet case up my ass when I got off the bus every day. That year, the bus stop was in front of my house, so Donald had a harder time cutting me off to torment me. The other boy would go along, to the point where they'd both sit in the front of the bus to get right behind me when I got off (I always sat behind the bus driver for safety).

One day I'd had enough. When this boy hit me with his trumpet case, I threw my things to the ground, and shoved the other boy on his ass. Of course, the other kids were cheering the impending fight. Donald was laughing. I was so disgusted, I picked up my things and went into the house. The other boy never bothered me again.

About a year after we graduated from high school, Donald was arrested for murder. He killed his mother's boyfriend after the boyfriend beat his mother up, then took the body to the river, placed it in a boat house and burned the boat house to the ground. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison.

Everyone I knew was astonished at this. I knew what a monster he was for years, and said so at the time.

He's out of prison now, and friends with some of my Facebook friends. Some of the comments he's made about guns tells me nothing about him has changed.

My friends aren't pyschopaths. They're actually pretty nice people. The bottom line is . . . they were never Donald's victims, so they never saw him at his worst. That's why they were surprised when he did time for murder.

This bully in this story never let his friends see his worst side either. That's why people who knew him don't understand why this happened, and never will.

[Andara Bledin]

This bully in this story never let his friends see his worst side either. That's why people who knew him don't understand why this happened, and never will.

Donald is a less-common type of bully. He's the guy next door that everybody would say was "such a nice, quiet boy" when he's hauled in for some heinous murder.

Most bullies are not that smart, and they're not doing it to hurt others as much as they are to make themselves seem tougher/more cool to their group of friends, making secrecy counter-productive.

^-.-^

[Evandril]

I do not understand why a weapon possesion charge is being called for, over a *pocket knife*. You know, those super dangerous weapons designed to be stored in your pockets that I'd never realized were under federal restrictions...

So far, we have a kid who was being bullied, who tried going to authorities, and was not helped...who was, in fact, forced back to school in a way that's going to insure a kid is not going to go to those same people for help again...Who attempted to avoid the fight, then, when cornered, *STILL* tried to get away, even after being hit, who then brought out the knife as a threat to try and make the fight stop, and then after being attacked *AGAIN* started stabbing, and didn't stop until the threat stopped. Obviously the calculating actions of a professional killer here, folks!

We're talking a scared kid here, who had tried more than most kids would, who was viewing a knife the way even adults will view a gun...as some magical talisman that you wave around, and make the bad people go away. What is the reason again that kids aren't allowed to vote, drink, drive, or do other 'adult' tasks again? Isn't it because they are not responsible for their actions, mainly because they do not have 'adult' judgment yet? If an adult had been mugged, and killed their attacker, there wouldn't be this debate...but a child is being held to a higher standard, because the mugging was pre-planned? Forgive me for not seeing the logic here!