"consenting adults" taken one step further or just too far?

[Mytical]

I do have to agree that there is more chance of a child getting molested by a family member then any other person, as family has more 'opportunity' to do so. However...again Pepper..the argument you are presenting currently is shudder worthy even if incest is NOT a factor. It does not suddenly become 'ok' if incest is not involved.

If a father molests his son or daughter, or a mother their child, they should pay and pay dearly. However, that teacher/councilor/etc that does the same (because they have the opportunity) should be right there beside them. Ie it is wrong without incest..and nobody is arguing it is right suddenly because incest is involved. So while I do believe that there is more of a chance of a family member (who has more opportunity) being the culprit, I do not see how the argument is against incest itself. As there are many cases where somebody in power who are NOT related have used their positions of power to molest/force their sexual intentions on people.

[Kheldarson]

But the issue is, and the taboo was formed around, the fact that most core families (where the taboo is strongest) do grow together and do have the power dynamic. So even beyond the whole genetic diversity issue, there's the simple fact of in the majority of cases of incest, you have the dynamic that we all disagree with intact. IE, it's at best abusive, at worse pedophilic. It would be difficult to say the younger member in an incestual relationship is giving consent simply because you have the question of grooming over the years of growth. And since that's the majority of cases, what sense does it make to open it up to playing the exceptions game with the few minor cases of extreme separation as have been pointed out in the thread?

[Mytical]

The same reason it would be for any other relationship. There are many grey areas, and some that are not even grey, in all forms of relationships. So what..we should all just stop having relationships because there are many, many, many bad types of relationships?

There is abuse, power dynamics, and the list goes on and on and on. That is for every type of relationship..regardless of if it is taboo or considered normal. Do I think there should be incest? No. If there is then yes..I think it should be with similar aged individuals. If the relationship started when one was underage..then I think it should be put a stop to and any laws that would apply to a non-incest case applied to the individuals involved.

Again, is it any better if it is a councilor, a teacher, or somebody else who might have power over a child? I mean frankly any father or mother that does something to their child like that should be strung up in my opinion, but then again so should any adult who has power over a child if they molest that child.

[Canarr]

Do I think there should be incest? No. If there is then yes..I think it should be with similar aged individuals.

But you'll rarely, if ever, have that in case of incest, unless you're talking about cousins; and they are usually not as close to each other as siblings or parents-children are.

You will *always* have one be older than the other. And, since families grow together through the childrens' formative (teen) years, there will *always* be ample chance for manipulation of the younger one. Sure, you can say, that might happen in school or in summer camp, as well. But neither teachers, nor counselors, nor boyscout troop leaders will ever have the same depth or extent of contact that close family will have. Therefore, any option an external authority figure might have to abuse their power over a teenager is only a fraction of the power an older sibling or parent might have.

In order to avoid that (as far as possible), I believe that my siblings and my own kids should always be "off limits" as mates. Just to throw up a barrier making sure that I realize how very wrong it would be to do anything in that direction.

[siead_lietrathua]

incest as sexul abuse and incest as consensual relationships are diffrent, just as any sexual abuse and consensual relationship are abusive. it doesnt matter how much grooming the victim had, its still going to fuck their head up because deep in they never wanted it, unlike a consensual relationship.
also the article only talks about consensual marrige between adults. not pedophilia. please dont lump the two together.

[Gravekeeper]

This has become the weirdest thread. >.>

[Canarr]

also the article only talks about consensual marrige between adults. not pedophilia. please dont lump the two together.

I'm not, believe me. But even without the matter of pedophelia - which is an entirely different topic - I still have trouble believing that there could ever, truly, be a consensual relationship/marriage between father & daughter, mother & son, or older sibling & younger sibling. Same goes for same sex versions of either.

Due to the difference in age, thus maturity, thus understanding of the matter, and thus: power, I simply believe that the chance of manipulating the younger partner - even unconsciously - is way too great, greater than it could ever be with teachers or other adults in position of authority over teenagers. Therefore, it needs to remain against the law to conduct such a relationship, pure and simple.

I have no issue with cousins marrying. or even parents marrying their offspring that grew up with the other parent. But I don't think people should have a sexual relationship with younger relatives that they practically formed during the time they grew up. That's just wrong.

[Andara Bledin]

There is never equal power between both individuals in a relationship. It's impossible.

Someone is going to be older. Someone is going to make more money. Someone is going to be more popular. Someone is going to be better at certain things.

It is absolutely possible for people to have partnerships in which the members have notably differing power levels and still be successful and wanted by both parties.

^-.-^

[Evandril]

Due to the difference in age, thus maturity, thus understanding of the matter, and thus: power, I simply believe that the chance of manipulating the younger partner - even unconsciously - is way too great, greater than it could ever be with teachers or other adults in position of authority over teenagers. Therefore, it needs to remain against the law to conduct such a relationship, pure and simple.

The age difference between my Wife and me is more than the difference between our two boys. For most of our marriage, I worked, and she didn't...and because I'm in the military, even when she did have a job, mine *had* to take priority. From what you're saying about age and power, we haev a very bad marriage, and it should never have happened...While we've been married for 18 years now, and through two bases with 70%+ divorce rates, for my job. Yes, there will be siblings that abuse one another, and that falls under 'abuse', the same way any abusive relationship does. There are also far more siblings that would give their lives for each other... What about that group?

PepperElf, you quote Heinlien in your sig...Go read 'Time Enough for Love', namely the story within in it dealing with 'The Twins'.

[Canarr]

It is absolutely possible for people to have partnerships in which the members have notably differing power levels and still be successful and wanted by both parties.

^-.-^

Absolutely. I have several friends with significant difference in both age, maturity and power level in their relationships. Sometimes it worked out, sometimes it didn't. I agree with you that it isn't impossible.

But not between close relatives that grew up together. I just don't believe that's possible. And so far, you haven't shown me any solid argument on why I should.

The age difference between my Wife and me is more than the difference between our two boys. For most of our marriage, I worked, and she didn't...and because I'm in the military, even when she did have a job, mine *had* to take priority. From what you're saying about age and power, we haev a very bad marriage, and it should never have happened...While we've been married for 18 years now, and through two bases with 70%+ divorce rates, for my job. Yes, there will be siblings that abuse one another, and that falls under 'abuse', the same way any abusive relationship does. There are also far more siblings that would give their lives for each other... What about that group?

I'll assume that you didn't live together with your wife her entire childhood and teenage years until she turned 18 and then married her. If you did, I'm caling you a creep; if you didn't, I see no reason why your marriage shouldn't be succesful and happy - but neither do I see what it has to do with my point.

My point is: kids live with their parents and siblings through their formative years, during the time when they work to figure out who and what they actually want to be in life. The parents - and the older siblings - are role models for the children and teenagers, providing them with examples on how to lead a life that they really don't have an idea about until they learn of it from others - especially from their family.

Kids love their parents, and their older siblings, coming from an age where they really don't understand what love is, yet, and what different kinds of love there can be. Most of the time, they crave their approval, and strive to modify their own behavior to obtain it. Therefore, it could all too easily happen that an older relative with the wrong kind of love towards a younger one could instill such feelings - or the illusion thereof - in their younger sibling, or daughter, or son. It doesn't even have to be intentional, it doesn't even have to be abuse, but it would still happen - if incest were legal.

I have no problems with the concept of a 40-year-old meeting a 20-year-old, falling in love, marrying, and growing old together. I would never claim that couldn't be a healthy relationship. But the idea of a 40-year-old mother marrying her 20-year-old son? That would leave me wondering how much of his feelings are truly his own, and how much were just instilled in him by her.

[Panacea]

So, your problem with incest has nothing to do with it being incest. Got it.

^-.-^

There's usually two problems with incest as it is defined: issues with genetic defects, and abusive power relationships. Genetic issues aren't usually an issue, so I am not too concerned with those. I am concerned with the power relationships. Those are very difficult to eliminate, unless you're talking about two very close relatives who did not grow up together.

Incest in practice vs incest in theory. What happens when a father starting raping his daughter when she was 12, but the relationship is still there at 22?

There is no relationship. What you have is abuse that the daughter has been convinced is a relationship. What you have is rape.

(And never mind that one man is my 7th-Great-Grandfather once and 8th-Great-Grandfather three times, but that's around the time of the Revolutionary War, so it's not like there was a WV at the time.)

True . . . at that point, what is now West Virginia was part of Virginia.

I will give another case in point. Cults. Some of cult leaders have sex with their followers children. Has nothing to do with incest..so..it is not wrong? Again..take the incest out of the equation..if it is wrong without it, it is wrong with it. Yes, cults can last years. Please don't jump straight into the 'argabrgle that is because religion is wrong' bit either. A cult has about as much to do with religion as My little ponies has to do with the social and economical realities of mid eastern cultures.

This is another situation where you're talking about abusive power relationships. Cultists who do this to their children are abusing them. Sex in cults is a tool for control, and a very effective one.

The thing as, what your describing already falls under pedophilia. De-illegalizing incest won't suddenly make this start happening more or less. It won't effect this possibility in the slightest. If someone is twisted enough to do that, their going to do it regardless of incest laws or not.

It's only pedophilia if sex takes place with the abused person is a child. If a person is using a power relationship to "mold" a younger sibling into "the perfect sex toy", then it is not pedophilia if the first sex act takes place at adulthood. Pedophilia is an abnormal urge to have sex with children regardless of genetic relationships.

Incest CAN be both, but isn't always.

This has become the weirdest thread. >.>

Consider the source. You know how bad the sexual puns get on CS.

[Seifer]

Well, maybe if people would stop locking their children in their attics, this kind of thing wouldn't happen.

[PepperElf]

and yes... i know heinlein wrote books with characters that engage in incest.

however that doesn't magically make starship troopers and the duty comment wrong.


or are you suggesting i'm obliged to agree with EVERYTHING he says just because i agree with one thing?

[Greenday]

and yes... i know heinlein wrote books with characters that engage in incest.

however that doesn't magically make starship troopers and the duty comment wrong.


or are you suggesting i'm obliged to agree with EVERYTHING he says just because i agree with one thing?

My spidey senses were tingling. I just got done rereading Starship Troopers.

I also don't understand what the characters in one book doing have anything to do with characters in another book.

[Silverharp]

I see that there's one side of things that hasn't really been brought up, and that's the isue of "grooming".
I've seen cases where you hae a girl who has been brought up to be the perfect daughter or sister, always subservient to the males in the household. Does that mean that once she's 18 it's fair game? By some of the reasoning that I've seen she's now a consenting adult, so she can make her own decisions. This is one of the reasons why incest is illegal, besides the ick factor.