Teachers and the First Amendment

[PepperElf]

Since it's headed here anyway might as well ask.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Does this apply in the classroom?

Or, more pointedly, does this mean that teachers cannot ban topics, give out bad grades, or tell students to "change the topic" if the student says "freedom of speech" ... ?


I say, the teachers still have the rights - somewhat.

Bad grades
Too fucking bad. Stop whining!

If the teacher gives you bad marks for spelling, grammar, or being wrong then suck it up and learn. That's what you're in school for.


Banned topics
Yes and no. That depends on what the class is over. However, I have to disagree with banning them out of boredom. Children often get the same ideas as previous grades. It's somewhat normal to me that they would think the same things or turn in the same ideas on a paper.

And I'm somewhat reminded of what one of my professors once said in a poetry class. When he was in school, he once heard someone say "Well you can't write a poem say... about fried sneakers!" So one of his classmates wrote a poem about fried sneakers."

In fact I'm somewhat against banning topics altogether. I know there are probably some that should be banned - but equally so there will always be someone who argues for it. (this site itself is perhaps a good example of that with the different viewpoints here).

So for now, banned topics... I personally just say, keep it in the same topic your class is over. So you aren't going to submit a paper on the religious practices of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster when the class assignment is for a book report. Unless of course you've managed to find a book about the FSM and your report is on that book. Keep it on subject's all I'm saying.

Telling students to drop an argument
Allowed. Just because you're being paid by taxes - and tuition - does NOT mean you are obliged to listen to every kid who wants to spout off and claim "freedom of speech".

Hell over at CS we have that lovely video about a girl whining that the cop didn't want to talk to her while he was writing a ticket. here - a few replies down


Government employee does NOT mean government representative. Nor does it create in the employee an obligation to listen.


These students who whine about "freedom of speech" forget this part. Nowhere does it say anyone has to fucking listen to them.

and in my opinion that's what some students are trying to do with that one - forcing others to listen against their will. And of course causing a disturbance.

I mean especially in college. It might be government-owned but fuck it i have to PAY to be there. Why the fuck should I pay to say... take a class in web design, only to be forced to listen to another student trying to start an argument about political views?

[Amanita]

I remember the book "No more dead dogs", where the protagonist has to write a book report on "Old Yeller" and being a dog lover, he doesn't like the book. He's tired of the fact that in all these classic dog stories, the dog always winds up dead. So he writes an honest report saying he didn't like the book, and why. Trouble is, that's not cool with his teacher. His teacher insists he re-write it, saying he liked the book. He refuses, and everything goes to hell from there.

I would hope a real life teacher wouldn't do that to a student- force them to write a book report saying how much they liked a book they in actuality, hated. To me, that would be out of line. I can understand a teacher expecting a student to back it up when they write about why they don't like what they've been assigned to review. But insisting that every student write glowingly about it, going on about how much they like it regardless of their actual feelings isn't cool either. To me, that does count as forcing one's own opinion/interpretation onto students.

[bara]

I dont like reading Shakespeare. I like a play just fine. But being forced to read it is a bit of a pain in the ass to me.

Students are allowed to have opinions and so are the teachers. But forcing a viewpoint is wrong if not backed up by facts. Teachers are required that certain things be taught and have an obligation to keep the class on track.

[HYHYBT]

Well, it depends. Bad grades for spelling and grammar are fine. Bad grades for expressing an opinion different than the teacher's are not.

I think that's a big part of it, actually. If opinions are being discussed, let them be. If opinions are not to be discussed, then that needs to go for the teacher as well unless all sides are being presented.

Factual matters are another story.

[Silverharp]

One of my favoruite teachers in high school handed out an assignment one day on various fables and the lesson that was to have been learned. I remember that I was the only student to be given full marks on one of the answers with a 4 word response to "Noah and the Ark"
The answer I gave? "Don't tick off God"
I could tell that he got to my paper by the insane laughter

[Seifer]

Kids have more freedom of speech in a classroom than the teachers do. Kids are allowed to talk about whatever politics they believe in, and they can express their opinions openly. The only time there's an issue is if they're trying to bring race or religion into an argument. When you have a classroom with lots of different ethnicities and backgrounds, you can't let arguments or debates get too heated.

Teachers can't express any sort of opinion one way or the other. You can't discuss religion, or your personal political views. Parents and law makers see this as the teacher "poisoning" the children. As a teacher, you REALLY have to police yourself and watch what you say.

[Panacea]

Many of the examples blas cited would not be violation of free speech. There is no constitutional protection against bad grades, and grammar violations are not free speech.

Teachers do have a right to decide the topics that will be discussed in their classrooms. They are usually tied to educational objectives. They can sometimes be unreasonable (ie, "no fried sneakers" poems) but it IS the teacher's classroom and free speech is not infringed simply because the teacher sets ground rules.

I had a creative writing teacher who refused to allow submissions in genre (ie, horror, sci fi, westerns, etc). He like poetry that fit his Greenwich Village hippie style. He was a great poet (his stuff was really good) but he sucked as both a teacher and a human being. I was glad when he took a sabbatical to be a guest lecturer at another University. The guy they hired to replace him (and eventually kept) was more interested in creativity, and how to express ideas. But I can't argue that the first guy had the right to set his own house rules. It was his class.

And sometimes limiting topics helps keep papers on task. For example, my students have to write an evidenced based research paper discussing a topic related to the concepts of our course, but that do not simply repeat what I discuss in lecture. For example, we talk about Adult Respiratory Distress. A paper on that would not be OK, but a paper on Ventilator Acquired Pneumonia (which leads to ARDS) would be. Papers on topics unrelated to my course are not acceptable.

And having those conditions are OK; the purpose of the paper is to meet course objectives, not let students explore something just because it interests them.

And I've had a student throw the "I pay your salary" BS at me earlier this semester. She was pissed because she didn't read the instructions on a test and thus flunked it. She claimed she was not paying good money for me to not do what she wanted (ie throw out the test). I told her that her tuition didn't entitle her to get the answers to a test from me.

All tuition entitles one to is to sit in a course, hear the lectures, do the work and EARN a grade. I don't work for the students. I work for the State of North Carolina.

I remember the book "No more dead dogs", where the protagonist has to write a book report on "Old Yeller" and being a dog lover, he doesn't like the book. He's tired of the fact that in all these classic dog stories, the dog always winds up dead. So he writes an honest report saying he didn't like the book, and why. Trouble is, that's not cool with his teacher. His teacher insists he re-write it, saying he liked the book. He refuses, and everything goes to hell from there.

While the student may have been missing the point of the stories, he is entitled to his opinion. The teacher can give him a bad grade for missing those points, but he can't require a student to write a paper saying he likes a book when he does not.

If, in this situation, the student articulated a good argument about the weaknesses of stories like this where the dog always dies, with examples, then I would probably give him a good grade. If it's just a rant with nothing to back it up, I might give him an opportunity for a re-write (with points off for being late) and explain that his paper did not meet the objectives of the assignment . . . he needs to explain what the story is trying to convey in its message regardless of whether he likes it or not.

Kids have more freedom of speech in a classroom than the teachers do. Kids are allowed to talk about whatever politics they believe in, and they can express their opinions openly. The only time there's an issue is if they're trying to bring race or religion into an argument. When you have a classroom with lots of different ethnicities and backgrounds, you can't let arguments or debates get too heated.

Teachers can't express any sort of opinion one way or the other. You can't discuss religion, or your personal political views. Parents and law makers see this as the teacher "poisoning" the children. As a teacher, you REALLY have to police yourself and watch what you say.

This. So this. I am constantly being accused by local conservatives of "indoctrinating" students with a "liberal agenda" simply by virtue of being a college professor.

The fact I teach a science and not the liberal arts seems to make no difference to them . . . not that it would matter since even the liberal arts professors don't do this.

But I have to be very careful when discussing issues such as birth control and abortion when I teach OB nursing. I took a big risk a couple of years ago when I asked the class to write a paper on health care reform when the law was still be debated.

[Racket_Man]

bad grades for expressing an opinion different than the teacher's are not.

unfortuneately some of the Professors I had in college would disagree with you. This is one of the reasons I partially hate essay type exams. the profs wanted the answsers to conform to THEIR way of thinking, their view of the world, their facts. even if you could provide differeing, legitimate and valid "proof" you still got marked off either partially or completely.

[Andara Bledin]

While not useful for some applications, professors who force you to toe their line are great for training people for life with bosses, since most bosses will have stupid rules they want you to follow even if you could do better work without them.

But, still, they should be grading based on the parameters expressed, not the parameters as filtered through their own personal bias.

^-.-^

[HYHYBT]

unfortuneately some of the Professors I had in college would disagree with you. This is one of the reasons I partially hate essay type exams. the profs wanted the answsers to conform to THEIR way of thinking, their view of the world, their facts. even if you could provide differeing, legitimate and valid "proof" you still got marked off either partially or completely.

Exactly.

Though in *some* cases, it may be the same confusion between "you don't understand what I said" and "you disagree with what I said" that pops up in discussions of all types, including here. If you're going to disagree on a written assignment or exam, it's probably a good idea to demonstrate that you *understand* what you're disagreeing with so they know you were paying attention.

And hope the professor isn't a [posterior orifice].

[fireheart17]

[COLOR="red"]Banned topics
In fact I'm somewhat against banning topics altogether. I know there are probably some that should be banned - but equally so there will always be someone who argues for it.

It depends on the age group as well. If I was to let a 10-year-old kid do their project on pornography, then I'd have to wonder if the child was being sexually abused.

[jackfaire]

I had a college professor that would ban certain topics from research papers because he was tired of things like

Stoners writing "Why we should legalize Marijuana"

Uber Christians "Why your all going to hell"


Etc basically papers designed with more opinion and rhetoric than actual research.

So he banned any topic that tended to get away from real research. He wanted us to know how to research not just how to ignore everything that doesn't agree with our view point.

[bara]

So he banned any topic that tended to get away from real research. He wanted us to know how to research not just how to ignore everything that doesn't agree with our view point.

I like this idea.

[Kheldarson]

I had a professor who banned things like abortion and gay marriage as topics. He said he had yet to get a decent paper on any of them so he didn't want to read them. So he gave us a paper to argue around about alcoholism.

[DrFaroohk]

I think the free speech extend only until it disrupts the classroom. And same for the teacher- their rights are only to enforce an orderly classroom. If I come home and post on my facebook "Mrs. Dithers is a big fat bitch!" and e-mail it to the whole school faculty, they can hate me all they want but have no right to punish me for it (and they deserve punishment of their own if they do).

It's between me and my parents, because it happened at home. If I use the computer lab at the school, it's different, because it happened on school property and time.