Cultural differences make violence OK?

[Glados]

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If I were to pepper spray someone of a different culture during a cultural ritual, I would be charged with a hate crime or , at least, assault. When the police do it they get excused on the basis of "cultural misunderstanding". I am appalled at this ruling. Lack of knowledge about another culture is not an excuse to commit an act of violence.

[BlaqueKatt]

Link

If I were to pepper spray someone of a different culture during a cultural ritual, I would be charged with a hate crime or , at least, assault. When the police do it they get excused on the basis of "cultural misunderstanding". I am appalled at this ruling. Lack of knowledge about another culture is not an excuse to commit an act of violence.

so it was ok they were blocking one of two exits? and it was ok they ignored police orders to move?

two wrongs don't make a right, but it is not as one-sided as it seems

Uintah County attorney G. Mark Thomas called the pepper spray and baton appropriate "weapons" as used by Roosevelt police officers to clear a stadium exit the dancers were blocking.

The performers repeatedly ignored police commands but they believed their routine had the tacit approval of school officials and football fans

[KnitShoni]

One the one hand, these guys were blocking an exit and wouldn't move when asked. On the other hand, I've yet to find an article that mentions any actions taken between asking them to move and using batons/pepper spray.

[Andara Bledin]

The article mentions that they were blocking the only exit from the stadium for the teams, and that they were yelling obscenities.

At what point does it cross the line from a group performing a cultural ritual, and a group using the excuse of a cultural ritual to act like assholes?

Here is a poor video of the incident. It appears that they let one team leave the stadium before blocking the exit entirely and starting their chants. I can't hear what's being chanted very clearly, but it sounds like "fuck you" is part of it. Also, the guy at the end threatens to sue the moment they get broken up, which seems awfully negative for someone who's supposed to be doing a supportive activity.

There is far too little data here for any real decision. All we know is that the chant was planned, several kids were allowed to leave the stadium and the rest weren't. Police were on-hand before they started, and they kept chanting for several seconds after the police stepped towards the group, so the pepper spray wasn't deployed immediately, although the spraying happened less than a minute after the chant began, and seems to have stopped as soon as the group moved out of the exit away from the cops.

^-.-^

[Glados]

The article that I read stated that the obscenities occurred during the game not during the haka. So I misunderstood that aspect. The issue that I have with the ruling is that the police got a pass not because the force was justified ( which it may have been) but specifically because it was a cultural misunderstanding. A ruling that absolves police of responsibility on that basis is dangerous. It sends the message that using force against a people involved in activities that are not understood is OK.
The judge should rule it as justified force if that is what it was instead of implying that cultural misunderstanding is a valid reason for use of force.

I apologize that I was not clear that it is the ruling that I disagree with. I did not research the actual incident in detail.

[fireheart17]

I can also understand the misinterpretation to some degree. Depending on which version of the haka is performed, one of them uses what LOOKS like a throat slitting gesture, which could be vaguely interpreted as a threat.

Here's the more common haka "Ka Mate"

Here's the less common haka Kapa O Pango Apologies for the poor quality, I was trying to find the unmodified version. (the modified version has them draw a flat hand from hip to shoulder level)

[HYHYBT]

Cultural or not, a misunderstanding in this situation is, well, understandable. I do, though, think they head for the pepper spray far too easily and quickly in general.

[BlaqueKatt]

Cultural or not, a misunderstanding in this situation is, well, understandable. I do, though, think they head for the pepper spray far too easily and quickly in general.

pepper spray is considered by most police officials to be a force level below actual physical contact with a suspect.

levels of force continuum

Pepper Spray, Baton, Taser. When the suspect is violent or threatening, more extreme, but non-deadly measures must be used to bring the suspect under control, or affect an arrest. Before moving to this level of force, it is assumed that less physical measures have been tried and deemed inappropriate.

[Andara Bledin]

Cultural or not, a misunderstanding in this situation is, well, understandable. I do, though, think they head for the pepper spray far too easily and quickly in general.

Considering that one of the officers in question was worried about a potential riot, that's entirely debatable.

^-.-^

[Beckpatton]

It appears that they let one team leave the stadium before blocking the exit entirely and starting their chants. I can't hear what's being chanted very clearly, but it sounds like "fuck you" is part of it.
^-.-^

You're right, it's not the best quality video. From what I could see there were people exiting while they were preparing for the Haka, and they stopped people from leaving when they were ready to start. "Fuck You" is not part of the Haka. I don't know exactly what was said, I don't know it word for word, but it's definitely not Fuck you.

I only watched the video once, I couldn't even see when the spraying began or stopped. What I saw was a bunch of young men performing the haka, and some police officers trying to move them along. Which seeing as they were blocking an exit is fair enough. However I think they may have jumped on the pepper spray a little too quickly, as I find it hard to believe that once the Haka began, anyone who wasn't directly in front of the police could hear a word they were saying.

You ever been near a crowd of big fella's doing a Haka? So very loud!

Plus they were all caught up in the activity of the Haka itself, I doubt most of them even knew they were being moved along until the spray hit them.

Whether or not they used excessive force I can't judge from the video evidence alone. I have witnessed the Haka many many times, and have never found it threatening. However obviously they are causing a fire hazard by holding it right there in the exit, so did need to be moved along.

If they were found to have used appropriate force, I have no problem with that, that's what investigations are for, and I'd have to like it or lump it. But I don't think "cultural ignorance" can be the basis alone.

FYI- I found it so weird that they didn't recognise the Haka, but then I live in Australia and see it all the time. Hell I went to a Maori wedding in October and they must hav done it 10-12 times! Seemed like every 20 mins someone was starting up another one. I find it to be very powerful emotionally, and I know the people performing it do too, so I can understand these guys getting caught up and not realising the cops were trying to break it up.

[jackfaire]

The judge should rule it as justified force if that is what it was instead of implying that cultural misunderstanding is a valid reason for use of force.
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That ruling is the same ruling that would be used to explain why a civilian is not being convicted of a hate crime. Hate crimes are about intent.

The Judge isn't saying you see something that you know is a cultural ritual you can just wade in and start cracking skulls. What he is saying is that not knowing that this was a cultural ritual and perceiving it as harassment means a misunderstanding is more likely.

IE If I walk into an area where a bunch of people are shaking sticks at me and jumping around I am going to feel threatened and start taking sticks away. I may however just walked into a ritual to purify the land or something.

I shouldn't be convicted of a hate crime when I didn't know that since my intent wasn't hate crime but rather self defense.

[Gravekeeper]

Need better video >.>

On one hand, it does seem like they went for that pepperspray pretty damn quick. But on the other hand, they were blocking an exit and the entire point of said Haka is to be as loud and intimidating as possible seeing as its a war dance. If you didn't know what it was, and frankly I didn't I had to look it up, I could see you going "Jesus, whats going on here?".

I don't know, intentionally and illegally blocking an exit, not moving for the cops and performing a series of actions that is loud and intimidating as a group no less....seems pretty damn stupid. Expecting other people ( Let alone cops ) to understand your cultural intentions is also pretty damn stupid. Especially when said intentions would be easily misunderstood by those not in the know.

When a cop rushes over and talks to you, you shut the fuck up and listen. Because chances are he's saying something that might be rather important. You don't just keep yelling in his face and standing in his way. -.-

[SkullKing]

I agree that more information would be better, but from what information I have found in this thread, I am with the cop.

Thay were blocking the way, they were ordered to stop being a nuisance, they refused, they were dealt with.

As for the Haka, I knew about it, but I never heard of it being made is sporting events, I only knew about it in the contest of getting ready for warfare. So if I saw a bunch os people doing it after their team lost , and preventing people from leaving i would conclude, they were looking for trouble.

And since sport riots can be very violent i would feel relieved seeing a cop diffusing it. Hell, If I were in a similarly large group and these guys started doing the haka at us, and preventing us from leaving, odds are we woud force our way past an be ready to do violence while doing it.

[jackfaire]

Also question? What other step is there? If you have tried talking and communicating to a person that they need to move and they refuse to do so I would rather pepper spray be the next step then oh I don't know physically assaulting them, pulling a gun, etc.

Is there some step other than those that people think should happen between talking and pepper spray?

Would someone say, "Well she tried talking but she really should have done something else after that before pepper spraying the guy assaulting her"

[Seifer]

I don't really see why pepper spray was justified here. They may have been blocking an exit, but they weren't threatening the other teams or trying to throw punches. If they had been getting into the other team's face and trying to start a fight, I could see why the police would need to use force to break up a potential mob fight.

To me, this is similar to pepper spraying a group from West Side Story, only with less finger snapping.