Bringing Up Bebe vs. Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mom

[tropicsgoddess]

The one common ground these books have is that they boast the superiority of their parenting styles over the American style of parenting. The differences between the two according to the article is how the French parents emphasize self-control and respect with their children. The Chinese on the other hand are more about tough love and setting high expectations for their children.I would personally go more with Bringing Up Bebe because for when I have children, I want to instill patience, self-control, respect and empathy in them as well as being open and sensitive towards other cultures and creeds. The Bringing up Bebe does have good points on it but the only thing is that with both books it's like they're saying American parents as a whole suck. Yeah, we know there's a fistful of parents in America are good but of course leave it to the bad apples to spoil the bunch.


Link!

[Rageaholic]

I did a rant on Amy Chua a while back. Words cannot describe how much I hate that bitch. I'd go with the French parenting style all the way. Sounds like a much more sensible option than the elitest crap Chua preaches.

[Seifer]

I remember reading somewhere that Asian parents tend to ignore the crying of a baby in order to teach the baby not to cry for attention. (Basically they feed the baby at certain times and change it at certain times, and if the baby is crying simply to get attention they ignore the cries.) The article mentioned that this kind of parenting can lead to children who are less attached to their parents or feel less secure, which makes sense.

I wish I could find the article again so I could post a link to it here. I tried the mighty Google, but it's actually giving me articles and questions from all types of parents about when it's okay to ignore a baby crying. Looks like parents from all ethnicities wonder if it's okay to ignore their baby if the crying is simply for attention.

[Panacea]

There are times when it's appropriate to ignore a baby crying; if for example the parent has done all they can to figure out why the baby is crying: changed the diaper, fed the baby, checked for colic, played with baby, etc, etc.

To maintain ones own sanity, sometimes walking away is the safest thing to do for all concerned; a constant cry can really drive you nuts.

A friend of mine would freak when her baby cried and she couldn't figure out how to make it stop. It took a long time for me to convince her to just let the baby cry.

With her 2nd baby, she got on the ball much quicker with that

Amy Chua is an elitist bitch. I pity any child raised with her "methods", which are a notch short of child abuse IMHO.

[Andara Bledin]

The article mentioned that this kind of parenting can lead to children who are less attached to their parents or feel less secure, which makes sense.

Well, I don't know about less attached, but this article at The Guardian from April 2010 suggests that it can cause brain damage.

Another article at Ask Dr Sears possibly from 2011, but using research as late as 2004 supports that, as well as mentioning the issue with emotional development among others.

Another article at The Natural Child Project about Controlled Crying as a method of getting a baby to sleep states that it should never be used on children less than 6 months old and also goes into the issues mentioned. It mentions a position paper from Australian Association for Infant Mental Health Inc.

Pretty much every expert notes that there is no real benefit to ignoring a baby's cries and many reasons why it is bad to do.

^-.-^

[jackfaire]

Pretty much every expert notes that there is no real benefit to ignoring a baby's cries and many reasons why it is bad to do.

^-.-^

yaaaay vindication

My ex and other people when my daughter was a baby would tell me I should start ignoring her cries but the thing was I couldn't ever. See she never cried unless she really wanted one of us or something. If I picked her up and held her to my chest if nothing else was wrong she would stop crying.

The one time I tried ignoring her crying she went to her bedroom door and started pounding her little fists on it I never listened to others about ignoring her crying again.

[Andara Bledin]

Apparently the research indicates that if they understand that comfort will always be available, then they settle down and stop testing much faster than when it's withheld or delayed.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Oh lordy....I can weigh in here. My ex is the offspring of a Tiger Mom. I have encountered this beast in its natural habitat >.>

One of my exs is from China and basically mom had her entire life planned for maximum success and it backfired magnificently. Shipped her off to another country to go to university in the courses and career that mom had deemed would make her the most successful. She flew off the rails inside of a year. The moment she got free from mom's household and control, she basically lost it. With mom in a different country, she couldn't force her to do what's best for her success anymore. So my ex eventually dropped out of her university courses, spent about a year or so just flailing around trying to do the things she wanted to do, doing all the things she was never allowed to ( Drinking, partying, etc ), being overwhelmed by responsibility ( Mom controlled everything she did and in doing so never taught her how to do anything for herself really ) and generally struggling with life as a whole. After a couple years of that she finally got her bearings and started pursuing the career she actually wanted.

I remember all the crazy rules though ( She wasn't allowed to turn her cell off in case mom called and she HAD to answer it when mom called no matter where she was. Even in a movie theater <twitch> ). I myself got chewed out in Mandarin several times because I answered the phone ( she stopped answering her cell, so Tiger Mom would call us at home ). Never understood a word of it, but the tone was rather unmistakable. >.>

[BlaqueKatt]

Apparently the research indicates that if they understand that comfort will always be available, then they settle down and stop testing much faster than when it's withheld or delayed.

^-.-^

yup attachment parenting advocated this and people scoffed. Problem is attachment parenting was supported by anthropologists, as in this is how humans evolved to be raised, a few hundred years of "experts" doesn't negate 10,000 years of evolution, it doesn't just go away that fast.

[Silverharp]

but the only thing is that with both books it's like they're saying American parents as a whole suck. Yeah, we know there's a fistful of parents in America are good but of course leave it to the bad apples to spoil the bunch.

I'll be honest, I believe that over the past 20+ years our country has fostered an entire generation of whiney, self entitled elitists.

What we're dealing with now is the result of being told from birth that you are a special snowflake and should be rewarded for every action. This is slowly being undone (thankfully) as more and more parents see the mess that this has caused.

I think that the sudden surge in "tiger mom" parenting is the inevitable backlash to that as adults who were raised in the era of self esteem camps and awards for finishing (because no one comes in first, everyone's a winner. woo!)

[fireheart17]

yup attachment parenting advocated this and people scoffed. Problem is attachment parenting was supported by anthropologists, as in this is how humans evolved to be raised, a few hundred years of "experts" doesn't negate 10,000 years of evolution, it doesn't just go away that fast.

Not to mention that some "attachment therapy" methods have wound up with kids severely abused or neglected and in some cases, even death. (One kid wound up suffocating underneath a bunch of blankets as part of a "rebirthing" therapy)

I'll be honest, I believe that over the past 20+ years our country has fostered an entire generation of whiney, self entitled elitists.

Agreed. Case in point, down here, local shopping centre is introducing paid parking, albeit not for another 2-3 years. The amount of bitching and whinging over it makes me wonder if the whole "self-entitled" mentality stretches back further. (the reason behind the introduction in the first place is to discourage people from using the carparks as a "Park and Ride" service, since there's a bus interchange located at the shopping centre and a train station about 800m away. There is a time limit but it's rarely enforced.)

What we're dealing with now is the result of being told from birth that you are a special snowflake and should be rewarded for every action. This is slowly being undone (thankfully) as more and more parents see the mess that this has caused.

I think that the sudden surge in "tiger mom" parenting is the inevitable backlash to that as adults who were raised in the era of self esteem camps and awards for finishing (because no one comes in first, everyone's a winner. woo!)

I'm a little bit mixed. Positive reinforcement does have its benefits (and in some cases, has been shown to be much more effective than punishment), however, the key is to use them sparingly. Rewarding a child for say, mastering a difficult piano piece is understandable. Rewarding a child because they're behaving better than usual is a grey area. Rewarding a child for completing a spelling test even though they only got 1/10? No.

I can understand participation awards depending on the situation (for instance, school sports), but rewarding people for walking through the school grounds during the holidays to check for vandalism? No. (my local primary school does that)

We normally didn't get rewards for volunteer work, except that at one point, because I volunteered for school crossing duty and was put into a group of four (you usually need 2 people minimum, but for safety reasons, our school did a team of 3), I usually tended to float around and would often relieve students who couldn't do their duties. I wound up being rewarded with a $5 voucher for the school canteen for volunteering so much.

[anakhouri]

I haven't read either book but have heard both authors being interviewed on the radio. Everything Amy Chua described appalled me- I firmly believe in encouraging kids to figure out what they want on their own, and letting them have fun and be kids. Which seems to be anathema to the 'tiger mother' philosophy. She said that both she and her children appreciated how they were raised, but I think they must be in the minority as everyone who called in with personal experience said they resented their parents for raising them like that and had bad relationships with them as adults as a result.

The French philosophy makes much more sense to me. I think most people make the mistake of thinking that kids are too young to get the concept of respect. Lots of times I see mothers telling their children not to snatch toys or hit other kids, but not why. I have always talked to Khan like an adult and I have always explained things to him, "Don't hit people, it hurts them." "Don't take things, it makes the other child feel sad." Basic stuff like that. Even if he doesn't totally get it, it will eventually sink in through repetition and will become second nature. At least, that is my hope.

As for attachment parenting...I knew a co-worker who did this; she told me she breastfed her daughter until she was 4, slept in the same bed with her until she was 6 and had never been away from her longer than a day. Maybe this works for some people but I would lose my mind! Maybe Leslie was an extreme example, I don't really know much about the practice. I never let Khan cry (my mother-in-law told me I was holding him too much and should let him cry. My response was, "He's two weeks old!"). People often comment on what a happy kid he seems to be and I think it is because he knows that he is well-loved, even if I not sleeping in the same bed or breastfeeding him still.

[Amanita]

In regards to "self esteem" and awards-
I remember a local con we had- somebody suggested just handing out prizes to everyone at the costume contest, "best use of a bedsheet", etc, because "we're all winners".
I was against this. Costuming is one thing I actually compete at, and I would hate to work my ass off on something, just to get the exact same award as the guy next to me wearing a Jedi costume made of a karate uniform and bathrobe.

As it was, this past convention I got an honorable mention in the Master's category. I'm actually proud of that. Even if it was an honorable mention, it still has merit, it's not some lame "everybody gets one" award. And it actually motivates me to try even harder next year, to try and top what I had this time.
(There were the standard first, second, and third place awards, and the honorable mentions. Even honorable mentions in this contest required some merit, they were not given to just anyone)

[Mishi]

To maintain ones own sanity, sometimes walking away is the safest thing to do for all concerned; a constant cry can really drive you nuts.

I agree with this (and yes, I've read the abstract of the study) because if the baby is still screaming despite everything being done and despite being held, rocked and shushed then sometimes as a responsible parent, you do need to put the baby down somewhere safe and take a two minute walk with a few deep breaths. It's the recommended course of action for parents over here and it's because some people still don't understand the dangers of shaking a baby. I had to put Jazzy down every now and then, but she's ahead of her class and tests as 'above average'. She does have a speech problem, but that appears to run in the family on both sides.

I like and use some of the attachment parenting ideas, but I do insist on discipline when it's needed. We like to emphasize love, respect, empathy and learning. I didn't realise how 'crunchy' I was until I started looking at some of the mummy sites I guess I should stop reading so much!

[BlaqueKatt]

Not to mention that some "attachment therapy" methods have wound up with kids severely abused or neglected and in some cases, even death. (One kid wound up suffocating underneath a bunch of blankets as part of a "rebirthing" therapy)

attachment therapy IS NOT anything close to attachment parenting, I really hope you are not comparing/confusing the two. Attachment parenting is what you would likely do if you were stuck giving birth on a deserted island without all the modern contrivances, meaning going back to evolution, and figuring out how humans evolved to raise their children(slings which are lighter than strollers and carseat carriers, breastfeeding, co-sleeping*, the author describes one person who throughout the day never actually held her child, child went from crib to carseat/carrier, to swing and playpen-she refers to these as "baby containers). It's also very inexpensive(she has a long list of "necessities" attachment parenting doesn't require-it allowed my ex-husband and I to live very comfortably on his salary of $1200/month.


*co-sleeping can be done safely, many of the co-sleeping deaths are the result of not following the safety guidelines, such as: sleeping when under the influence of drugs or alcohol, sleeping in a chair, sleeping with heavy blankets, toddlers sleeping with infants, etc. or in some cases infanticide that the parent knows won't be punished. The previous head of the CPSC resigned because she would not state an untruth-"co-sleeping is always dangerous", she was being pressured by the Juvenile product manufacturer's association to say so, so they could sell more products.

co-sleeping and SIDS