Spanking children

[anriana]

I've seen firsthand the difference between spanking/disciplining a child and not. A certain member of my family has two kids, the older kid was disciplined by his father, and the younger was not due to his parents getting a divorce. The older kid has a wife and three kids, and a successful career while the younger kid still lives at home (he's 25 now), has no job, and has no motivation to get a job since mommy still babies him.

I know it's not scientific research, but having known both guys for over 10 years it's very clear that the younger son is the way he is because his mother never put any discipline into him.

My wife works in a shelter for teenage boys and pretty much all the kids there (except the ones who have mental issues) are there because there was no discipline at home. These are the so called "bad kids" and she's said more than once that all these kids needed was a smack on the ass when they were younger and they probably wouldn't be at her shelter now.

Also, lack of discipline is the main cause people behave in that lovely SC manner we all come to know and love. How many times have you been in public and heard kids talking back to their parents in tones that would have got us smacked by our parents? Or just seen kids out of control in general to the point where you wonder what's wrong with the parents? Lack of discipline leads to the "my widdle pwecious" syndrome where kids are led to believe they can do no wrong, which leads to obnoxious jerk adults that we end up having to face at CS jobs.

And I can write many, many examples of children who were spanked and turned out poorly or who were not and turned out fine.


As far as whether or not I have children, how is that relevant? I was a child myself five or six years ago and my brother is still a child in my parents' eyes. I was in a school that administered corporal punishment eight years ago. Is only the opinion of a spanker relevant here?

A rap across the knuckles would be damn painful...

Is that not the point?

but if I was fresh, or talked back, I got a swat across the mouth.

That is an incredibly dangerous place to smack, especially with an adult-sized hand on a child-sized face.

[AFPheonix]

It has its place in a parent's toolbox. Some kids may need it, some may not. Some may be motivated better in other ways, some may need spanking as a motivation at times. Personally, I really REALLY didn't like getting swatted so I was mostly well behaved to avoid getting it. Well, that and Mom was good at instilling a strong sense of guilt into all of us
As long as it's not physically harmful, it's fine.

[Zyanya]

Well then. Anyone who posts political opinions without actually having spent time in Congress or Parlaiment doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on the war without working in the military or in the Pentagon doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on gun control who doesn't own a gun doesn't have a worthwhile opinion.

Anyone who has an opinion on abortion without a functional uterus doesn't have a worthwhile opinion, according to you.

Ladies and gentlemen, the above is what is known as a 'strawman'.

See, it is easy to do research and gain experience. If you haven't ever had responsibility for children though, then you lack any pertinent knowledge. Just like if all you know about the military is what a certain talk radio stations says, your opinion on that is pretty worthless as well.

We all remember childhood in funny ways. I cited an example of such earlier.

But when someone is saying something ridiculous like 'spanking is abusive and never works', it's generally the same inexperience that would lead someone to saying something ridiculous like 'people join the military because they get a hard-on at the thought of killing someone' or 'abortions are fun and some women have them 4 times a year'. It's just incredibly toooooooo obvious the person has no idea what they are talking about and thus their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

[DesignFox]

That is an incredibly dangerous place to smack, especially with an adult-sized hand on a child-sized face.

meh. My parents didn't do that when I was a toddler. That was when I got older. Should have been clearer, I guess.

My point was that a smack with a ruler on the knuckles seems more damaging than a smack on the butt. On a little kid you run less risk of breaking something by smacking them on the fanny.

It's just my opinion on WHY things are done that way.

[protege]

Also, lack of discipline is the main cause people behave in that lovely SC manner we all come to know and love. How many times have you been in public and heard kids talking back to their parents in tones that would have got us smacked by our parents? Or just seen kids out of control in general to the point where you wonder what's wrong with the parents? Lack of discipline leads to the "my widdle pwecious" syndrome where kids are led to believe they can do no wrong, which leads to obnoxious jerk adults that we end up having to face at CS jobs.

I was spanked when I was a kid, and I turned out fine

I've talked about my similarly-aged cousin before on CS. When she was much younger, her parents let her do whatever she wanted, and couldn't understand why she was such a spoiled bitch. They bought her silence with all sorts of shiny things.

She was only a bitch to me once. Why? Simple, I smacked the shit out of her when we were 4 or 5. I told her not to hit me, she did...and I clocked her in the face as hard as I could. Haven't had a problem with her since--she's abrasive to everyone else *but* me. Can't imagine why...

[AFPheonix]

Ladies and gentlemen, the above is what is known as a 'strawman'.

See, it is easy to do research and gain experience. If you haven't ever had responsibility for children though, then you lack any pertinent knowledge. Just like if all you know about the military is what a certain talk radio stations says, your opinion on that is pretty worthless as well.

We all remember childhood in funny ways. I cited an example of such earlier.

But when someone is saying something ridiculous like 'spanking is abusive and never works', it's generally the same inexperience that would lead someone to saying something ridiculous like 'people join the military because they get a hard-on at the thought of killing someone' or 'abortions are fun and some women have them 4 times a year'. It's just incredibly toooooooo obvious the person has no idea what they are talking about and thus their opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

And yet your assertation that only someone who has borne a child can have a valid opinion on spanking is not a strawman? I would beg to differ. If you've noticed, I point out the ludicrousness of some statements by drawing parallels to other situations. Just because they don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that they don't get to hold that opinion. Stick with making your case in a way that makes sense rather than denigrating what other people have to say.

[Zyanya]

And yet your assertation that only someone who has borne a child can have a valid opinion on spanking is not a strawman? I would beg to differ. If you've noticed, I point out the ludicrousness of some statements by drawing parallels to other situations. Just because they don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean that they don't get to hold that opinion. Stick with making your case in a way that makes sense rather than denigrating what other people have to say.

Hint - Try reading my posts.

This being what I actually said -

Nontheless, it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.

Not 'if you have no children you should shut the f up.', as you seem to think I said.

[the_std]

You are entitled to your opinion. However, an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

That's something else you said. But everyone on this board has experience with this topic, seeing as how they were all raised somehow and have experience with being disciplined.

Saying that someone's opinions aren't worth very much is what people are objecting to. No one said you told these people to shut the fuck up.

Although, my opinion is that every opinion has validity, because we all come from different experiences and every issue needs to be seen from as many sides as possible. Especially on this topic. There are so many different methods of discipline that non-parents can see and interact with discipline all the time, therefore rendering their opinions valid.

[CancelMyService]

Opinions are all well and good but (and for the record I'm not a parent either) I would have to think once you have kids and you're responsible for raising them to behave properly, you might come to rethink your views when it becomes a 24/7 job.

Not to say that they *definately* would change, but certainly the possiblity is there.

[the_std]

Well, yes. Being a parent will change an individual's views, there's no doubt about that possibility. But not being a parent shouldn't automatically render their opinions invalid, or "not worth much".

[Amethyst Hunter]

But not being a parent shouldn't automatically render their opinions invalid, or "not worth much".

Agreed. You don't have to be a parent to know that there are just certain things one does not do to raise a child properly (i.e., feeding them crap food 24/7, giving them a steady diet of TV instead of getting them to read, etc.). (And yes, for the record, I'm not a parent.)

I support spanking - within obvious reason. There is a world of difference between spanking that says "I TOLD you not to do X and you did it anyway!" and spanking that's just plain all-out abusive beating.

My parents spanked both me and my brother when we did stuff we were explicitly told not to do, and we both turned out just fine (Excepting my mental illnesses, but that's a whole 'nother bag of worms and I guarantee you the spankings had nothing to do with it). If anything, this is one of the many, many reasons why I myself do not ever want kids; I fly off the handle VERY easily at even slight provocations and I fear that I would easily cross that line from acceptable spanking to outright abuse. I refuse to subject an innocent child to that kind of mood swinging.

Now, if you wanna discuss my lifelong aversion/hatred of wooden spoons, you might be on to something...

[AFPheonix]

Hint - Try reading my posts.

This being what I actually said -



Not 'if you have no children you should shut the f up.', as you seem to think I said.

Did I say that you said that? Please point out where I said or even thought that. The_STD quoted the line you stated that I refuted.

[Slytovhand]

Perhaps this term 'spank' needs to be defined. While there is no specific definition to it here in this thread, we're free to interpret it as much as we want... into any direction. Is there a difference between a 'spanking' and a 'slap' (as in on the wrist).

For my part (other than my aforementioned), it comes down to 'parenting' as a whole and that also includes the whole idea of creating a person.. a human being with strength, courage, wisdom, intelligence, self-empowerment, compassion etc etc.

I don't see that spanking comes into that.

Neither does molly-coddling. (is that a standard word out there?? Cos I was thinking that 'fanny' has a slightly different meaning in some parts of the world as well )

As for validity of opinions How many of us have politicians who actually know anything about what they're in charge of? Does your treasurer or finance minister have a degree in
Accounting or Economics? And they look after the country!!


Slyt

[protege]

My parents spanked both me and my brother when we did stuff we were explicitly told not to do, and we both turned out just fine

Been there, done that. My mother wasn't afraid to spank us if we misbehaved and/or mouthed off to her. She managed to break several yardsticks in the process. Yes it hurt like hell, no it didn't leave marks. Of course 20-25 years ago, people tended to mind their own damn business about that There's a big difference between spanking and outright abuse. My mother would spank us just once to make her point. Usually, that was all that was necessary. My brothers though...not so much Still, we turned out fine. Odd, because my mother always said that my younger brother wouldn't see his way past 5. Troublesome bastard, he is.

...and it's not just kids that got spanked. Grandma used to hit Kitty with the broom if he scratched her. Not hard, just enough to startle him. I never had to do that, a swat on the tail, and a firm "BAD KITTY!" did the trick. Eventually though, just calling him a "bad kitty" was enough. He seemed to hate being called a "bad kitty" and usually behaved himself. Kitty got plenty of praise when he'd get mice, and was constantly being told he was a "nice, good kitty."

[Zyanya]

Saying that someone's opinions aren't worth very much

I'm sorry, which of these facts did you have a problem with me stating?

1) People who have experience in the matter and have already achieved good results have more valid opinions
2) People often remember their childhoods as they choose to, not how they necessarily happened.

Let's look at basic scientific method, shall we?

When you have a bit of data, you can form a hypothesis. A hypothesis is simply an opinion on what you feel the result should be.

Now, if you actually test this hypothesis and are proven correct, it becomes what is known as a theory.

A theory is worth more than a hypothesis because it is tested and thus more likely to be true.

Therefore the opinion of someone who has actual experience in the matter and thus is offering a theory is more valid than the opinion of someone who has just thought about it and made some casual observations and thus has a hypothesis.


Thus, as I said earlier - an opinion with no experience in the matter isn't worth very much.

And - it is interesting to note the strong tendency of parents who raise good kids to be supportive of the act of spanking a child.