Neighbourhood Watch Kills Unarmed Black Kid

[Gravekeeper]

He's saying it is self-defense case.

In otherwords, he has no case. I like how even his lawyer sounds like he's tiptoeing around not wanting to get shoved into the hole his client has digged for himself.

[Ree]

Honestly, I don't see how this is any different.

He asked to get followed and shot because he was wearing a hoodie is as much victim-blaming as the other.

I don't think he's saying the kid "asked" for it at all.

He's saying an impression was formed in Zimmerman's head based on the kid's appearance. A strange guy was wandering in his neighbourhood in the rain, wearing a hoodie. Zimmerman might have assumed the hoodie was an attempt to hide kid's identity, and that seemed suspicious to him.

I'm not saying Geraldo or Zimmerman were right, but there's a huge difference in assuming that someone wearing a hoodie was attempting to hide who they were, and in assuming that a woman wearing sexy clothes was asking to be raped.

[KnitShoni]

I don't think he's saying the kid "asked" for it at all.

He's saying an impression was formed in Zimmerman's head based on the kid's appearance. A strange guy was wandering in his neighbourhood in the rain, wearing a hoodie. Zimmerman might have assumed the hoodie was an attempt to hide kid's identity, and that seemed suspicious to him.

I'm not saying Geraldo or Zimmerman were right, but there's a huge difference in assuming that someone wearing a hoodie was attempting to hide who they were, and in assuming that a woman wearing sexy clothes was asking to be raped.

Geraldo's very first tweet about the situation was that being Black or Latino and wearing a hoodie is asking to get stopped and frisked, or shot.

[Ree]

But, as Hispanic person, himself, isn't Geraldo saying it in a manner that is addressing the bias and racism?

I could be wrong, but I am seeing it as more of an attempt to slam the mentality where a person sees a black or Latino kid in a hoodie and automatically assumes the worst.

[KnitShoni]

But, as Hispanic person, himself, isn't Geraldo saying it in a manner that is addressing the bias and racism?

No.

First of all, Hispanic and White aren't mutually exclusive, so Hispanic heritage does not rule out the possibility of racism (evidenced by anti-Black racism directed towards Afro-Latinos from White Latinos).

Second, here are the tweets from yesterday:https://twitter.com/#!/GeraldoRivera


Is there a reason White people en masse can wear hoodies, but if you're Black or Latino, it's automatically assumed you're in a gang? Shouldn't that tell you that maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with clothing choices?

[bainsidhe]

I'm with those who call Geraldo's comments vicitim-blaming as well. That's all I'm going to say on that, because I feel Geraldo's now using this as a way to get back into media's limelight. No publicity is bad publicity.

So why hasn't Zimmerman been arrested yet? Police keep saying there's lack of evidence to prove Zimmerman wasn't defending himself, so is there some mysterious secret evidence supporting Zimmerman's claim, which hasn't been released to the public? Because so far, it's impossible for me to buy Zimmerman's self-defense claim. Or is the national attention making everyone go through the evidence with a fine-tooth comb so they don't muck anything up even more?

Either way, something needs to happen. Soon.

[Ree]

Is there a reason White people en masse can wear hoodies, but if you're Black or Latino, it's automatically assumed you're in a gang? Shouldn't that tell you that maybe, just maybe, it has nothing to do with clothing choices?

Ah, but hoodies have been associated with gangs for a very long time, and gangs get associated with Black and Latino.
This isn't something recent.

As I said, I am not saying it's right, nor do I agree with it, but the whole stereotype is reinforced in the media, movies and TV.

Watching the news and they show a CCTV clip of a robbery and guess what the perp is wearing a large majority of the time?

Watch a movie or TV show with gang violence, or some other type of crime. Perps are wearing hoodies. (Apparently, Hollywood also sees it as the uniform of choice for gangs and criminals.) The perps are also Black or Latino most of the time as well. (Again...hey Hollywood...thanks for reinforcing the stereotype.)

If I'm not mistaken, even in the UK and in Australia, some malls have banned people who are wearing hoodies, and some schools have banned the hoodie from their students' wardrobes entirely.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...stice.politics
http://www.financialexpress.com/news...ralia/357933/0

I think Geraldo was trying to make a statement, but went about it really badly, which really isn't anything new for him.

[Hyena Dandy]

First of all, Hispanic and White aren't mutually exclusive, so Hispanic heritage does not rule out the possibility of racism.

Also, you can have racism other than between blacks and whites. In this case, between hispanic and black.

If he was afro-hispanic it could STILL be racism. It could be racism if he was black on black. Racism is more than just 'white supremacist'. I'm sure Zimmerman didn't want to kill the guy 'cause he was black. But that doesn't mean he didn't.

[KnitShoni]

"Ah, but hoodies have been associated with gangs for a very long time, and gangs get associated with Black and Latino."

So have jeans. And scarves. And certain colors. And rosaries. And suits, for that matter. Basically, if the person wearing it is Black or Latino, it's gang attire.

Nothing in either link indicates race was a factor in the banning of hoodies in UK or Australia. Which tells me those articles are irrelevant to this conversation, as, in this conversation the issue is not the banning of hoodies, but why they're considered wrong to wear on black or brown skin.

[Ree]

I'm sure Zimmerman didn't want to kill the guy 'cause he was black. But that doesn't mean he didn't.

Exactly.
It was his bias that caused him to target Martin as suspicious, but I don't think he set out to kill the kid just because he was black.

Even in his words to the 911 operator who asked, "White, Black or Hispanic?" he said, with just a slight hesitancy, as if he was only then determining the skin colour, "He...looks...Black." (Slight emphasis on "Black".)
So, initially, I think he noticed the guy wasn't white, but hadn't yet determined what race he was. He just saw a strange guy in a hoodie, and it caught his eye.

Then, in the next split second, he did the mental rundown of the guy's appearance and jumped to 4 alarm suspicion because he made his biased race connection and assumed he was up to no good.

That's the part that makes it a death just because the kid was Black.
Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin because he was Black. He initially targeted him because he was Black. A confrontation arose from that, and the shooting happened as a result of that confrontation.

I think, if Martin had been white, a strange guy in a hoodie would still have caught Zimmerman's attention, but I doubt the situation would have escalated to the degree that it did.

Also, you can have racism other than between blacks and whites.

I am well aware that bias is not just a "white vs. every other race" kind of thing.

I just don't think Geraldo's comments were coming from a racist point of view.

[Hyena Dandy]

I am well aware that bias is not just a "white vs. every other race" kind of thing.

I was addressing KnitShoni saying

First of all, Hispanic and White aren't mutually exclusive, so Hispanic heritage does not rule out the possibility of racism

I was just saying that even if he WASN'T Hispanic+White (he could have been Hispanic+Black, Asian, Indian, Arabic, or anything else) that doesn't discount racism.

In fact, he could have been black and it would still be racist. 'Cause he doesn't have to have thought "I hate blacks" just "Black people are suspicious." I've known black people who think that way.

The biggest thing that stops us from getting rid of racism in our modern society is the way we conflate racism with white supremacy.

Though it doesn't sound like he's sure WHAT the guy's race is. I'm going back and forth on how much this was racism, and how much other factors contributed. Certainly, I think agism and classism also part of this. 'Teens are dangerous' is a sentiment that's been put forward in this thread. Not all teens ARE dangerous. The classism could come from the hoodie without it being about race. If he's in an upper-middle class area, the hoodie is relatively uncommon, and associated (largely by the adults) with the 'lower classes'. That's not how 'we' dress.

It wasn't just "This guy looks black." It's also "This guy is a teenager," and "This guy is low-class." If it was just "I want to shoot black people," he wouldn't have been on such good terms with the black families in the neighborhood. If he'd been a black adult walking down the street, I think this wouldn't have happened.

They all contributed, in one way or another, to Trayvon's death. And none of those reasons is any better than the others.

[KnitShoni]

He wasn't on good terms with the black families in the neighborhood. Many of the families in that neighborhood have come forward stating he was overzealous to the point of harassment, and that he targeted young Black males as being suspicious.

[Ree]

Nothing in either link indicates race was a factor in the banning of hoodies in UK or Australia. Which tells me those articles are irrelevant to this conversation, as, in this conversation the issue is not the banning of hoodies, but why they're considered wrong to wear on black or brown skin.

But it backs up MY point that Geraldo was not equating the hoodie specifically with race, either, although it does come into the picture.

Many people see a hoodie as a way for a person to hide their identity in the commission of a crime, regardless of the skin colour of the person wearing it.

I realize the discussion is not about the banning of hoodies.

I was merely pointing out those links to show that there is a perception that young people of any race wearing a hoodie can come under suspicion because of an assumption that they are wearing them to hide their identity.

I think, at heart, that was kind of what Geraldo was saying, but he was also pointing out that there is a stereotype that exists if the person is of colour.

As I pointed out, in my opinion, it was a strange kid in a hoodie walking in the rain at night that caught Zimmerman's attention. I don't pretend to know exactly what went through the guy's mind because I am not psychic.

Maybe he did make the connection to "black dude in a hoodie is up to no good." I don't know.

I do know that, if this was the case, it's not an isolated situation.
It happens every day.

Some people who claim not to be racist at all do move to the other side of the street, or hug their children just a bit tighter on a bus or subway if they encounter a group of "minorities" specifically Black or Latino, wearing hoodies.

Is it right? Hell no!!!

It would be marvellous to just have people be educated and intelligent and rational, and if racism could be wiped out entirely, but the fact is, racism does exist, and stereotypes and biases exist.

I think Geraldo was just pointing out that the "Black/Latino youth in a hoodie" bias does exist, and it's probably not going to go away any time soon, no matter how much education is done on the subject, so why invite trouble?

It sickens me that a young guy of any race can't just walk down a street at night wearing whatever the hell they choose to wear, but the sad reality is that there are going to be people who jump to conclusions based on their first impression and their own bigotry.

I do think what Geraldo said was a rather stupid thing to say, but I think I do understand what he was actually trying to say.

[Hyena Dandy]

Maybe he did make the connection to "black dude in a hoodie is up to no good." I don't know.

I think he did, but it wasn't just black. It was 'black, male, does not look upper class.' So he puts it all together. It wasn't JUST racism.

Some people who claim not to be racist at all do move to the other side of the street, or hug their children just a bit tighter on a bus or subway if they encounter a group of "minorities" specifically Black or Latino, wearing hoodies.

And that's kind of the point I've tried to make. Because they probably, by their standard, are NOT racist. Because our culture explains racism as 'white supremacist.' They won't say black people are incapable of success, or intelligence, or that white people are inherently better. And since they don't THINK that blacks are inferior, they think they get a fair pass. Racism is more than white supremacists.

[KnitShoni]

But it backs up MY point that Geraldo was not equating the hoodie specifically with race, either, although it does come into the picture.

How? How does it back up your point, when what you're claiming he didn't say is exactly what he typed?