Neighbourhood Watch Kills Unarmed Black Kid

[bainsidhe]

Nothing supports any drawn-out fight at all, including the lack of reports that the later 9-1-1 calls included any reports of a confrontation; all I have found mention only "gunshots."

I'd read that neighbors called saying they heard a struggle followed by gunshots. Doesn't mean it was a drawn-out fight though, you're right that it wouldn't take much for Zimmerman to get a bloody nose and bloodied head. Which of course makes it even more distressing that he shot an unarmed teenager dead in his tracks.

[Andara Bledin]

None of the articles I read mentioned a struggle, but it's quite probably that I've missed a few details in my skimming.

In other news, this article includes the mugshot taken when Zimmerman was arrested in 2005.

And THIS is the Change.org petition for the police to arrest and prosecute him in the shooting death of Martin.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

None of the articles I read mentioned a struggle, but it's quite probably that I've missed a few details in my skimming.

Police recieved six 911 calls from residents reporting a fight and during one of them both the fight and the gunshot can be heard.

Zimmerman also states that he got out of the car to confront the teen:

Moments later, several calls were made to 911, telling police two men were fighting and shots were fired. When officer T. Smith arrived at the scene moments later, he found Martin’s body lying face down on the grass about 70 yards from the family’s home, bleeding from a chest wound. He had $22, candy and a can of iced tea in his pockets.

Zimmerman gave police a statement that he stepped out of his car and he and Martin fought. He said he was “yelling for someone to help, but no one would help me.”

Zimmerman is guilty of at *least* manslaughter. At *least*. He literally stalked and killed a minor. He did everything in his power to escalate the situation to the point where he could use deadly force. He stalked the kid despite being told to let the police handle it, he followed the kid home, he got out of the car to confront the kid then he shot the kid when the confrontation went exactly as you'd expect.

Absolutely no part of this is excusable. If some pyschopath follows you home, gets out of his car and comes after you its pretty damn reasonable to defend yourself. This man should be in jail. End of story.

The fact the family had to hire an attorney for this to even get some media traction is appalling enough. Nevermind the police lying about Zimmerman's record.

[Pinecone]

Interesting framework behind that statement. It rests on the presumption that the pedestrian must justify his presence to your satisfaction. Why? Walking is generally legal for any or no reason. "I feel like it" is good enough, and (unless there's a local ordinance) the time does not change that. Please explain why I'm wrong on this, if you really even believe your own post.

I found requiring a 'valid reason for walking around at night' to be indicative of acceptance of a police state. Have we really come to this in the western world?
Maybe in some places we have... I don't know how things are in Florida, maybe a police state is the better alternative.

Also have to object to the notion of 'property violence'. Corporations are legally people so now objects can be subject to violence?

[Gravekeeper]

I found requiring a 'valid reason for walking around at night' to be indicative of acceptance of a police state. Have we really come to this in the western world?

Hell, he was only out at 7pm too. Not like it was in the dead of night or anything. What sort of lunatic is Zimmerman to be driving around with a gun at 7pm looking for ( black ) supposed evil doers?

[Glados]

I don't know the laws where this occurred. Where I live those who get a CCW are taught that in order for deadly force to be justified there must be no other alternative. For example, if the attacker has a knife and you can easily get out of range of the knife. You MUST take the non lethal route before resorting to use of a gun. Since Zimmerman had a car and never had to confront the kid to begin with I would say he failed that test.

He deserves to be arrested and convicted. He created a situation out of his own bigotry and a child lost his life. I see no reason that deadly force was needed.

* The law where I live is overly strict. I am simply using it as an example.

[Gravekeeper]

* The law where I live is overly strict. I am simply using it as an example.

I'm pretty sure that's a standard part of every CCW course. Even if its not officially the law everywhere.

[Glados]

It probably is. I also don't think that the law is enforced as strictly as it is written. I have never heard of a case in which someone was harshly prosecuted for having overlooked a small avenue of escape. It is used more to prosecute when someone jumps to lethal force as a first option.

[bara]

Im pretty sure the laws in ohio over CCW are similar.

[Aethian]

If I had been walking home from a 7/11 run (which I couldn't do anyways but still) and noticed a car following me I would have started to run. Cause I don't know what some crazy person following me would do and I would pick the flight or the flight or fight sensation.

Now at work I have had people follow me and I hightail it back to the truck and then call 911. The cops are only too happy sometimes to come out and see whose bothering the mail lady. Usually it's a "Wanted to see when they were going to get their mail" which is dumb or "had to ask a question" which is also dumb. You don't follow someone in your car, all that does is insight suspicious behavior.

[radiocerk]

Maybe girls in Southern California are taught different things than boys in Florida, but when I was a kid, I was taught to draw attention to a potential pervert. So, if someone was following me in a car, I would definitely mouth-off, loudly and clearly, probably involving the words "creep", "wierdo", or "pervert". And if someone came out of a car after me, I would not turn my back on them to run, it makes you easier to grab. I don't see the teenagers actions as anything remotely questionable.

[HYHYBT]

Here's the thing. The victim was 17, and 17-year-olds I've seen look damn near like an adult. Sounds like the kid gave Zimmerman quite the beat down too. Zimmerman claims self defense, which considering his injuries I can understand. He already thought the kid was suspicious and just got his ass kicked, he probably thought he was defending himself in the best way he could. Problem is, he brought a gun. And the victim was unarmed. AND, Zimmerman set the whole confrontation in motion. So I have little sympathy for Zimmerman.

I'm reasonably certain you don't get to use the "self defense" defense when you created the situation in the first place.

[blas87]

I used to get followed a lot when I walked by lecherous men. In broad daylight. I don't really get the point in harrassing people who are out for a walk, but whatever.

Before I started only walking with another person and joined a gym, if it was because I didn't have a car or I just wanted to walk, if I felt followed, I'd wait for them to go down another street or make another loop and run off.

[jackfaire]

If I had been walking home from a 7/11 run (which I couldn't do anyways but still) and noticed a car following me I would have started to run. Cause I don't know what some crazy person following me would do and I would pick the flight or the flight or fight sensation.

Honestly given the mind set of Zimmerman since he was thinking, "this kid's up to no good" he likely would have taken running as confirmation that the kid was a criminal and "dammit look at him getting away just like I told the dispatcher they always get away well not this time!!!"

[crashhelmet]

A couple of points...

Confronting your Predator:
It is practically canon material now when teaching a self defense class, to teach your students to acknowledge your predator. In typical settings, we recommend having them ask the time or try and simply make small talk. It allows them the opportunity to see and remember any identifying characteristics like scars, tattoos, eye color, the kind of watch they wore, etc.

***ETA***
I forgot to add that a lot of would be attackers will move on to another victim if they think they can be identified.
***

Laws and CCW:
Yes, the laws for CCWs around the country, for those states that allow them, are pretty much universal. They teach you to use deadly force only when absolutely necessary. This wannabe super cop is yet another example of why getting your CCW does NOT mean you're better qualified than someone without it.

The Injuries to Zimmerman:
There is a chance that his bloody nose and scalp are self-inflicted. I've been training in martial arts for nearly 31 years. If I beat someone up and the police get called, I'm going to jail if I can't prove it's self-defense. If I don't have witnesses that say I was defending myself, I will hit my forehead on the ground give myself a mark or two. It's a hell of a lot harder to claim self-defense if there's no sign of a struggle.