Neighbourhood Watch Kills Unarmed Black Kid

[Andara Bledin]

I guess you never saw that picture. It's the result of Martin slamming his head into concrete multiple times at the end of the fight. You do get to shoot someone for trying to literally bash your brains in. Which is exactly why he was found not guilty.

I feel pretty confident in stating that Gravekeeper has seen that photo. I'm also pretty confident in stating that it's also consistent with what would happen to a person who got punched in the nose who then fell backwards onto concrete.

It is not consistent with someone who was having his head slammed into the ground repeatedly, however. Even the medical examiner described his injuries as "insignificant." In fact, the largest injury to the back of his head appears to be a cut, which would seem to indicate he was sliding at the time he hit the back of his head, which would be mostly impossible if anyone was holding him down.

I'm honestly confused as to why the response team didn't butterfly it to prevent further bleeding and possible infection. Unless, of course, Zimmerman didn't want his injuries to seem as insignificant as they were.

[Greenday]

I feel pretty confident in stating that Gravekeeper has seen that photo. I'm also pretty confident in stating that it's also consistent with what would happen to a person who got punched in the nose who then fell backwards onto concrete.

Please, a punch to the nose cause him to get knocked on his ass? In the movies maybe. A punch to the face never knocked me on my ass and I was never the biggest guy.

[Duelist925]

Please, a punch to the nose cause him to get knocked on his ass? In the movies maybe. A punch to the face never knocked me on my ass and I was never the biggest guy.

A punch to the face, especially popping someone in the nose, is fully capable of causing them to fall backwards, especially if they're balance isn't the best, or their in front of a trip hazard (Such as the edge of a curb).

It's not a matter of being a big guy, it's a matter of balance and environment.

Someone pops you in the nose, you're likely to stumble back--if your near a curb or other trip hazard, you are likely to trip backwards.

[Andara Bledin]

Please, a punch to the nose cause him to get knocked on his ass? In the movies maybe. A punch to the face never knocked me on my ass and I was never the biggest guy.

As noted, it's all about leverage and balance.

Trying to claim "It never happened to me so it never happens" is an extremely weak argument.

[crashhelmet]

I feel pretty confident in stating that Gravekeeper has seen that photo. I'm also pretty confident in stating that it's also consistent with what would happen to a person who got punched in the nose who then fell backwards onto concrete.

It is not consistent with someone who was having his head slammed into the ground repeatedly, however. Even the medical examiner described his injuries as "insignificant." In fact, the largest injury to the back of his head appears to be a cut, which would seem to indicate he was sliding at the time he hit the back of his head, which would be mostly impossible if anyone was holding him down.

I'm honestly confused as to why the response team didn't butterfly it to prevent further bleeding and possible infection. Unless, of course, Zimmerman didn't want his injuries to seem as insignificant as they were.

This is what I thought. If his head was slammed on the ground repeatedly, there would be knots, bumps, and/or bruises on the back of his head.

Please, a punch to the nose cause him to get knocked on his ass? In the movies maybe. A punch to the face never knocked me on my ass and I was never the biggest guy.

A single punch to the nose can drop someone. Some people can take a punch and some can't. It might not knock them out, but it could cause them to stumble backwards and fall.

Also the punch to the nose could've been one of many punches thrown. Most "street fighters" like to throw haymakers and one of those could easily drop someone.

[Greenday]

Also the punch to the nose could've been one of many punches thrown. Most "street fighters" like to throw haymakers and one of those could easily drop someone.

Which would then support the argument for self-defense.

[Ginger Tea]

Please, a punch to the nose cause him to get knocked on his ass? In the movies maybe. A punch to the face never knocked me on my ass and I was never the biggest guy.

That happened to me, granted I never saw it coming or even knew someone was lying in wait for me and it was me not just the first person to come out of the pub, he got it in his head I did something, his friends even said that it was BS and he was imagining it.

Walk out of a pub, end up on your back with a broken and bloody nose.
What pissed me off the most was one of his friends was holding me down although others were calming him down all he was doing was pissing me off, I was willing to accept he was drunk and imagined the whole reason I just wanted to go, but his friend's attempt to keep me from leaving ...
Luckily the lot of them were banned for a few months, unluckily the nightclub I and the bar man who barred them were going to would not let me in due to the state of my nose even after a clean up.

I was in their eyes just as guilty of being in a bar fight as the one who started it even though I threw no punches and wanted fuck all to do with it.
So he told me as I was leaving he'd add more time to the bar.

[crashhelmet]

Which would then support the argument for self-defense.

Who's to say that Trayvon wasn't defending himself?

What would your reaction be if some stranger jumped out of his car, yelling and running after you with a gun on his hip?

People keep forgetting that George Zimmerman was the aggressor in all of this. He should have no right to claim SYG or Self Defense.

[s_stabeler]

Which would then support the argument for self-defense.

um, nope. you do NOT get to kill someone merely for punching you. The standard is that a reaonable person would be in fear of their life.

Oh, and to address one point made by Bronzebow/Barracuda: Self-defense should NOT shift the burden of proof onto the prosecution to prove it wasn't self-defense. ( in Florida, it does. in other states, it doesn't) Self-defrense is an affirmative defense. ( basically, you're saying "yes, I did it but...") It is down to you to prove your affirmative defense, it's not down to the prosecution to prove you are lying. ( otherwise every single murder case would end up with the murderer claiming "self-defense" asnd all complicated murder cases would end in the murderer going free.

[Gravekeeper]

I guess you never saw that picture. It's the result of Martin slamming his head into concrete multiple times at the end of the fight. You do get to shoot someone for trying to literally bash your brains in. Which is exactly why he was found not guilty.

I saw that picture, it is not even remotely consistent with the sort of severe head trauma he claimed was occurring. Never mind being punched two dozen times. Rihanna literally had worse post attack injury photos than Zimmerman.

Zimmerman profiled Martin, followed him, Martin tied to run, Zimmerman chased him. Martin demanded to know why Zimmerman was following him, Zimmerman demanded to know what Martin was doing. The next words in the conversation are Martin yelling "Get off".

They scuffle for 30-40 second. Martin ends up dead. Zimmerman has no injuries consistent with the attack he described. Zimmerman also has about 3 different versions of what happened over the course of questioning. Police fuck up the investigation. Then the trial inexplicable ends up being Martin's instead of Zimmerman's.

Frankly, it sounds like Zimmerman started a fight then freaked out when he realized he couldn't whup Martin outright and shot him in a panic.

[Greenday]

Frankly, it sounds like Zimmerman started a fight then freaked out when he realized he couldn't whup Martin outright and shot him in a panic.

Well, unfortunately, you can't convict someone on "it sounds like". This is a murder case. You need definitive evidence to convict someone which holy crap was there none. There's only one person on Earth who knows exactly what happened and unfortunately for justice, it's the defendant. We'll never get the real story of what happened.

[Nekojin]

Well, unfortunately, you can't convict someone on "it sounds like". This is a murder case. You need definitive evidence to convict someone which holy crap was there none. There's only one person on Earth who knows exactly what happened and unfortunately for justice, it's the defendant. We'll never get the real story of what happened.

Sure, but we're not talking about courtroom proof here. I think most of the posters here already know, understand, and accept the verdict that was given (or, at most, think that it's screwed up because of Florida's screwed up self-defense laws).

We're talking about the actual details, all of the evidence that we (the community) have access to, not just the details that were brought up in court. Zimmerman (and his wife) lied during the bail proceedings; this wasn't brought up in the actual trial. Should we ignore that detail? Zimmerman was fired from a job as a bouncer because of excessive violence - he picked up a customer and threw her across the room. Should we ignore this detail about George's character because the trial never discussed it?

There's a lot more to the case than just the details that the Prosecution and Defense chose to bring to the stand.

[Greenday]

There's a lot more to the case than just the details that the Prosecution and Defense chose to bring to the stand.

It's not that they didn't choose to bring stuff to the stand. They weren't allowed to.

[Nekojin]

It's not that they didn't choose to bring stuff to the stand. They weren't allowed to.

Granted. But that still doesn't mean that we can't discuss them, and their relevance.

[Gravekeeper]

What you list is a possibility, sure, but without any real basis to give it weight.

There's a good amount of basis. Again, we know he followed Martin, we know Martin tried to run, we know he ran after him. We know Martin asked why Zimmerman was following him. We know Zimmerman asked Martin what he was doing. From that point, do you think Martin was yelling "Get off" while attacking Zimmerman in a sort of "Stop hitting yourself!" fashion? -.-

We know Zimmerman's injuries are inconsistent with his account of events. We know Zimmerman's account of events are inconsistent with themselves and changed several times during questioning.

I've read the first few pages of this thread, started by you, over a year ago. There seems to be a lot of misleading information in the OP. Just out of curiosity: would you change anything in your summary knowing what you do now?

The only issue with my original op was that we did not have the detail that Zimmerman was Hispanic yet. Other than that, it reflects the information we had at the time. Not much of which has changed since. I don't know where you get "lot of misleading information" in my original post nor why you would expect anyone on the first page to be clairvoyant in the original discussion.