Banning abortion doesn't make sense to me

[Pedersen]

Amusing. I'm choosing to discredit her arguments themselves. You're choosing to try to discredit her.

http://www.nutritionadvocate.com/sto...akthrough.html

It's not hard to live on a vegan diet. Many manage it and remain quite healthier, even healthier than many omnivores.

They may well live a healthier life. However, they do so by virtue of planning. On the flip side, someone who does not lead a vegetarian lifestyle does not need to plan so much.

As such, it is more difficult to live on a vegan diet. If you wish to dispute that, please do. I've already got sufficient links about people who failed to plan their vegetarian diet, and wound up with serious health issues. But, take it to a new thread. We're way off topic for this one.

But when someone says they had a child by rape (an incredible statistical rarity),

Child by rape, statistics from 1998: 25,000 pregnancies out of 333,000 rapes (see here). That's 1 in 13, or 7.5% of the time. Yes, the statistic is old, but I have no reason to believe it will have changed significantly since then. And 7.5% is hardly an "incredible statistical rarity".

worked in a CPC so knows all about abortion (but still has many of the facts wrong),

I've seen claims from you that she has many facts wrong, but no details on what those facts might be. Please educate me.

knows someone who had a hysterectomy due to an abortion (an incredible statistical rarity),

Given. I was unable to find evidence one way or the other on this topic, as getting statistics on complications from abortions is very difficult, and even more so from neutral sources. The best I could find was that the accepted number for total complications (not just complications resulting in hysterectomy) is around 2%.

has some sort of strange condition that prevents her from living on vegetation (pretty much a statistical impossibility)

B12 deficiency. Difficulty in absording iron from non-meat sources (I've known some vegetarians who had to revert to meat eating for just this reason). Any number of other possibilities.

Now, consider this: How many things about you are statistical rarities? Probably more than you admit. To use BK as an example, it's very possible that she, after being raped and going through the pregnancy that resulted, went through a period of working for CPC clinics (to ensure that other women would have the choice she denied herself), though not necessarily in the operating room (which would allow her to work there, and still have facts about the procedures wrong). The final straw for her might have been seeing a young woman come in that had this happen to her. Out of some sense of trying to help, she became friends with this woman.

And the vegetarian bit? Just an annoying coincidence.

If you want to discredit her, go ahead. Just do a more convincing job.

[BlaqueKatt]

But when someone says they had a child by rape (an incredible statistical rarity),

Really? The american journal of obstetrics doesn't think so(and it's a reason I fully believe "Plan B" should be readily available*)
"CONCLUSIONS: Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency. It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies and is closely linked with family and domestic violence."

worked in a CPC so knows all about abortion (but still has many of the facts wrong)

A crisis Pregnancy center is NOT a clinic, there were no doctors on staff, we were a clearinghouse for information, and assistance. We helped make dr. appointments for both pre-natal care and for medical abortions. We offered maternity clothing and baby clothing if that was asked for. We went to appointments for support if that was asked of us.

You are the one claiming I said I worked in a clinic-no medical training=no clinic work

knows someone who had a hysterectomy due to an abortion (an incredible statistical rarity),

Not according to the world health orginazation
"The most common injury is uterine perforation "

has some sort of strange condition that prevents her from living on vegetation (pretty much a statistical impossibility)

Try having a latex allergy, along with Iron deficiency anemia, and vitamin B12 deficiency anemia(very low platelet count-I bleed forever).

Foods I can't eat(due to latex allergy cross-reaction):
almond, apple, apricot, avocado, banana, raw carrot, raw celery, chestnut, cherry, dill, fig, ginger, kiwi, mango, melon, oregano, papaya, passion fruit, peach, pear, plum, raw potato, sage, raw tomato,walnut, passion fruit, grapefruit, mushroom, bell pepper, mango, pineapple, celery, cantaloupe, buckwheat, fig, lettuce, orange, peanut, strawberry, mustard, watermelon, bamboo shoot, coconut, loquat, peppermint, soybean, nectarine, Eggplant, Cherimoya

List compiled from:
Allergy Clinic.uk
National Institute of health Sciences
and Latex-Fruit Allergy By Daniel More, MD,


But I'm sure you know more than all of these people....


*no I don't beleive that hormonal birth control is completely safe, but I do feel it's the best option we have. And I would much rather have plan "b" available at you local supermarket, than see a baby aborted.

[Rapscallion]

B12 deficiency. Difficulty in absording iron from non-meat sources (I've known some vegetarians who had to revert to meat eating for just this reason). Any number of other possibilities.

Gravekeeper springs to mind.

Rapscallion

[Boozy]

Actually, speaking of CS members, I believe that Princess Snake has a digestive disorder that means she can only eat meat and animal products. I'm sure her disorder is rare, but there you go.

I've gotten to know BlaqueKatt's opinions on things pretty well by reading her posts on this forum, and I suspect that she'd be a vegetarian if she could. She's mentioned being Buddhist (who as a general rule don't eat meat if possible) and she's expressed a strong pro-life stance in threads about both abortion and the death penalty. But that's just my guess. She can speak for herself on the issue, and she has.

Now let's return to focusing on the arguments themselves, not the people making them.

[Lace Neil Singer]

One more point... childbirth carries just as many risks as abortion does, yet a lot of pro-lifers choose to gloss over that fact. More so, depending on the hospital; how clean it is, how many midwifes available and how many beds in the maternity ward.

Also, I'm sorry that you personally don't want an abortion, Blaquekatt; but you are not me and your circumstances are not mine. I have suffered from clinical depression in the past and looking within myself, I can see myself putting a pillow over a child's face if it didn't stop crying. It scares me, to be honest; I also know that I would not make a good mother so I choose not to become one. Shame a lot of women who physically and/or sexually abuse their children, neglect them, or allow their baby daddy to inflict abuse on their offspring didn't do the same.

Grim reading:

http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/childbirth/deaths.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20427256/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007...handwellbeing1

[Zyanya]

A crisis Pregnancy center is NOT a clinic, there were no doctors on staff, we were a clearinghouse for information, and assistance

A Crisis Pregnancy Center is a clearinghouse of lies and dramatically falsified stories designed to terrify and pressure women out of abortions due to ignorance, religious bigotry, and downright stupidity. And yes, many of them do indeed claim to be clinics.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/cpc.html

I went to one early in my pregnancy with my son. Scary lying fucking bastards. If anything, they nearly came close to convincing me to abort.

The funny thing is, all of the stories you are telling here (having a son by rape, counseling a victim of a botched abortion, nearly being an abortion victim yourself, having to battle doctors to prevent them from forcing you to abort) are all taught to CPC workers as ways to convince/intimidate women to not have an abortion.

These are some of the lies you've been spreading about abortion -

I would like to add also think of the MEDICAL issues(at least in the states)
1, the abortion industry has NO REGULATION-they "police themselves"
2, a doctor that performs abortions is the only doctor not REQUIRED BY LAW to have malpractice insurance
3, abortion is the ONLY medical procedure where INFORMED CONSENT is not MANDATED by law

my other issue is there are studies that show after an abortion it becomes very difficult to concieve/carry a child to term(a D&C results in scar tissue that forms over the fallopean tubes resulting in an 85% chance of ectopic pregnancy), but women going in for the procedure are never told this.. They are also not told about the 17 seperate studies done in sweden and china that show abortion increases the risk of breast cancer by up to 280%. The branch of the CDC that is responsible for reporting injury and death statistics for abortion has not released any data since 1988-why is that? And why are all the staff at the CDC that are in charge of collection the data employed at or investors/owners of abortion clinics. Would you let the head of a tobacco comapany run the american lung association, and compile reports on the safety of tobacco? That's what the CDC does for abortion, the reports on safety cite other studies written by other people in their branch exclusively-NO outside sources at all.

So many falsehoods and repeatedly debunked claims. In fact, nothing in the above paragraphs are true.

Really? The american journal of obstetrics doesn't think so(and it's a reason I fully believe "Plan B" should be readily available*)
"CONCLUSIONS: Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency. It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies and is closely linked with family and domestic violence."

Actual numbers? 5% per rape. That is there in your own article. You really should read things before posting them and claiming they support your argument.

Oh, and on the statistical rarity side of the abortion argument, didn't you also claim to be an abortion survivor?

And I think you'd feel differently if you had found out your mother had tried to abort you, and the doctor screwed up-he killed my twin though. I was born 5 months after my mother's attempt to abort me-no one realised she was still pregnant until around 6 months.

Hmmmm...... Kind of just amazing there.

Oh, and this -

Also to realise where I'm coming from-I was told no less than 6 times by 4 different doctors to abort my son due to the "possibility" that I'd have complications delivering(apparently they had never heard of a c-section)-the last time I was told I should have an abortion by a medical doctor was when I was 7 months pregnant-at 7 months I could have scheduled a c-section and he would've been in NICU, but I was told to have either a saline or partial birth abortion. They tried getting my husband to sign the consent forms for it telling him I might die during delivery if I didn't have one immediately.

Apparently no one told you that saline abortions aren't done anymore (they were rare even back in the 70s), but this story also seems to be suspect. ALL the horrible evil doctors wanted to perform an abortion on you even though the baby was viable and a C-section would be easier? And they even tried tricking your husband into agreeing? Even though that would have opened them up to massive lawsuits?

Oh, and partial birth abortion is not a medical term. Doctors don't use it. It's a propaganda term.



Now, maybe all of this is true and you've just been the most unfortunate person on the planet regarding abortions. But I'd like to think if I had that many negative encounters with something I'd actually educate myself on the reality.




I'll take back what I said regarding the Vegan thing, though based on a cursory read through the data provided, you could still easily consume enough vegetation to provide for all of your needs. It would simply require more effort on your part.

I've gotten to know BlaqueKatt's opinions on things pretty well by reading her posts on this forum,

As have I, and considering that one of her 'heroes' is a self-professed 'bitch-beater', I take just about everything she says with a grain of salt.

One more point... childbirth carries just as many risks as abortion does, yet a lot of pro-lifers choose to gloss over that fact.

Even more outright lie about it.

Amusing. I'm choosing to discredit her arguments themselves. You're choosing to try to discredit her.

The arguments have already been discredited, and repeatedly. And yet she keeps repeating them even after being shown they are false. I'm tired of such.

As for the rest, it's kind of like calling shenanigans on the main site. I might be willing to believe a customer came in and called you a racist slur. But if your story continues with 'so I jumped over the counter and smacked the bitch, then told her to leave before I called the cops, but she wouldn't, she tried to hit me, so I called the cops and she got arrested and haha bitch got what she deserved', I'm not exactly going to buy your story. It's a little much. Sure, it could happen. But the odds of it happening are small. And if you claim it happened more than once, well.....

[Zyanya]

So, Pro-Lifers .....

There is a girl who suffers from schizophrenia. Without her medication, she is a danger to herself and others. Her medication carries a 99% risk of serious fetal deformity or death. If she were pregnant, she would have to forgo her medication.

She has been to 11 doctors, and none will sterilize her, citing that 'she'll change her mind when Mr. Right comes along'.

If my friend gets pregnant, how do you propose she be prevented from getting an abortion? If she does succeed in utilizing one of the many natural methods that exist (or simply remains on her medication knowing it will most likely kill the fetus), what punishment do you propose she be handed?

[ArenaBoy]

No, not really.

http://www.nutritionadvocate.com/sto...akthrough.html

It's not hard to live on a vegan diet. Many manage it and remain quite healthier, even healthier than many omnivores.



But when someone says they had a child by rape (an incredible statistical rarity), worked in a CPC so knows all about abortion (but still has many of the facts wrong), knows someone who had a hysterectomy due to an abortion (an incredible statistical rarity), has some sort of strange condition that prevents her from living on vegetation (pretty much a statistical impossibility) and is trying to use all this supposed anecdotal evidence to make claims for abortion being wrong?

It has not escaped me that many forced-birthers claim to have worked in clinics and thus seen all the 'heartache abortion causes'. In fact, the reason so many make this claim is because forced-birthers are encouraged to make this claim in an attempt to lend false authority to their arguments.

You are so effing right that it pains me to see peoples responses to you on this thread!!!!!

******** YEAH!!!!!!

[IDrinkaRum]

I am against abortion. Personal reasons, no need to get into it here. I'm not willing to allow abortion to be banned, but if it is, I wouldn't be upset about it.

I had PPD (Post Partum Depression). It lasted so long (2 years before I go help), that it went from PPD to Depression. (And I've been depressed for as long as I can remember). I have General Anxiety Disorder. I have Emotional Anxiety Disorder. I have panic attacks. I have OCD. I have a daughter who has Autism. I have a husband who undoubtedly has a narcissistic personality disorder and is obese with a hernia that keeps growing and he isn't doing anything about it. And that doesn't include my mother (who has the martyr complex down pat), my father, and my sister (who has the martyr complex down pat even more than my mother). And don't get me started on my ILs.

We're all screwed up. I would like another child. Before my daughter, Kelly, was born, I didn't know I was depressed (and had a predilection for on and off depression through out the years - my mother thinks I make all this $hit up anyways). I've had PPD in the past, and I believe because I've had it once, the chances of having it again will increase. I'm obese, on high blood pressure medication and Lexapro. If I found out I was pregnant tomorrow, I would celebrate. Knowing all that is wrong with me. I'd still carry the baby to term.

Others might think I'd need to abort, but I wouldn't. My choice.

It's my choice to decide to abort or not to abort.

I understand BK's arguments. I know someone who falls into the category of statistical rarities, so it doesn't come as a surprise to me.

[anriana]

As a vegetarian of many years who has flirted with veganism, I think any American* claiming it is easy to live as either has never tried it or lives on a commune or is filthy rich and has a full-time chef.

*I say American because that is the only country whose food culture I am familiar with.


As for people who are saying that if we banned abortion, all sorts of bad things would happen, get a global perspective! Look at Latin America and Africa.


Furthermore, if abortion was banned, the next thing they'd be going after would be birth control itself (and they're already starting on that.)

[Zyanya]

As for people who are saying that if we banned abortion, all sorts of bad things would happen, get a global perspective! Look at Latin America and Africa.

Okay, let's.

The U.S.-based rights group said women with risky pregnancies whose lives might be saved by aborting the fetus were dying because of the ban on terminations in any circumstance.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/latest...40981920071002

Newsweek added: “In fact, childbirth is the leading cause of death and disability for women of reproductive age--more dangerous than heart disease and AIDS. And children left behind are the secondary victims. They’re more likely to die because they are motherless.”
http://www.planetwire.org/details/7482

I have spoken to women who used knives, knitting needles, rubber tubes, even pieces of wood to pry open their uteruses. Some got access to abortive medicines that in theory lower the possibility of direct infection but that caused serious complications when they took them without medical assistance. Affluent women suffered fewer traumatic ordeals, often traveling to the U.S. for the procedure or sneaking off to upscale private Latin America clinics where, on paper, they had surgery for appendicitis.
http://articles.latimes.com/2006/mar...n/oe-molmann21

It is estimated about 400,000 clandestine abortions are carried out in Colombia each year.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4760595.stm

In a region where there is little sex education and social taboos keep unmarried women from seeking contraception, criminalizing abortion has not made it rare, only dangerous. Rich women can go to private doctors. The rest rely on quacks or amateurs or do it themselves. Up to 5,000 women die each year from abortions in Latin America, and hundreds of thousands more are hospitalized.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/01/...on/edlatam.php

But despite such legal risks, Latin America continues to experience abortion rates that are much higher than most countries where it is legal.
There are an estimated 4 million abortions every year across the region. Up to 200,000 clandestine abortions take place in Chile every year--twice as many as in Canada, which has 100,000 a year--and Chile has half the population.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.c...ontext/archive

The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that 3.7 million unsafe abortions are conducted every year in Latin America and the Caribbean, which comes down to nearly one abortion for every three live births. In Africa, where 99% of these interventions are done illegally, the number of unsafe abortions is estimated at 4.2 million, representing one abortion for seven live births.
http://esciencenews.com/articles/200...ial.inequality


Oh, dear. It seems that when you ban abortion, many bad things DO happen.

[BlaqueKatt]

A Crisis Pregnancy Center is a clearinghouse of lies and dramatically falsified stories designed to terrify and pressure women out of abortions due to ignorance, religious bigotry, and downright stupidity.

And as I stated in the previous thread-mine was not like that-but you fail to beleive anything could be outside of your preconceived notions/personal experiances

The funny thing is, all of the stories you are telling here (having a son by rape, counseling a victim of a botched abortion, nearly being an abortion victim yourself, having to battle doctors to prevent them from forcing you to abort) are all taught to CPC workers as ways to convince/intimidate women to not have an abortion.

Considering we WERE not allowed to give our opinion to anyone-which I also stated in the previous thread.

So many falsehoods and repeatedly debunked claims. In fact, nothing in the above paragraphs are true.

The branch of the CDC that is responsible for reporting injury and death statistics for abortion has not released any data since 1988-
if none of these are true show me these numbers-for the US-previously you provided stats for austrailia(which are not covered by the CDC)

National Center for Biotechnology Information
Induced abortions and risk of ectopic pregnancy.
"Findings point to an increased risk of ectopic pregnancy after induced abortion."
Impact of induced abortions on subsequent pregnancy outcome

"CONCLUSION: This study suggests that a history of induced abortion increases the risk of preterm delivery, particularly for women who have had repeated abortions. The respective role of the surgical and medical techniques used for induced abortions needs to be explored."

yup all lies

Actual numbers? 5% per rape. That is there in your own article. You really should read things before posting them and claiming they support your argument.

"CONCLUSIONS: Rape-related pregnancy occurs with significant frequency. It is a cause of many unwanted pregnancies and is closely linked with family and domestic violence."

this was their conclusion from the study-apparently you didn't read their conclusion. 5% is one in 20-that is pretty high actually.

and this

Child by rape, statistics from 1998: 25,000 pregnancies out of 333,000 rapes (see here). That's 1 in 13, or 7.5% of the time. Yes, the statistic is old, but I have no reason to believe it will have changed significantly since then. And 7.5% is hardly an "incredible statistical rarity".

Even though that would have opened them up to massive lawsuits?

No it wouldn't you can't sue active duty military-I was living at Fort Leonard Wood Mo-GLWACH is a military hospital-all medical staff are active duty.

But I'd like to think if I had that many negative encounters with something I'd actually educate myself on the reality.

I'd rather just avoid it as much as possible-personally-outside of fratching-the issue doesn't come up much in my life, and I'm perfectly ok with that, as my experiences have caused a Pavlovian effect-I get very upset-to the edge of tears usually. Negative reinforcement sucks.

Oh, dear. It seems that when you ban abortion, many bad things DO happen.

In a region where there is little sex education and social taboos keep unmarried women from seeking contraception

and I'm sure lack of contraception and sex education has little to do with the number of unplanned pregnancies. Also if I'm not mistaken many countries there routinely practice female circumcision-which leads to severe complications in childbirth on it's own.(also stats on that from WHO-# An estimated 100 to 140 million girls and women worldwide are currently living with the consequences of FGM.
In Africa, about three million girls are at risk for FGM annually)

According to the WHO criteria, all types of FGC were found to pose an increased risk of death to the baby (15% for Type I, 32% for Type II, and 55% for Type III). Mothers with FGC Type III were also found to be 30% more at risk for cesarean sections and had a 70% increase in postpartum hemorrhage compared to women without FGC. Estimating from these results, and doing a rough population estimate of mothers in Africa with FGC, an additional 10 to 20 per thousand babies in Africa die during delivery as a result of the mothers having undergone genital cutting.

[TheRoo]

Here are some statistics on abortion on the CDC website:


http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5407a1.htm

It lists the number of legal abortions, the demographics of women getting legal abortions, and the death rate of legal abortions in the U.S.

[AFPheonix]

Well, back to the not having sex thing.....
The other thing to consider that is often neglected are abusive marriages. There are spouses who take advantage of their other half and can and do result in pregnancies that aren't wanted.

Abortion is a medical procedure. As such, it does carry a certain amount of risk. All invasive procedures do. However, the evidence is such that the risk taken is at an acceptable level for most people. If someone wishes to have it, it should be available and be as safe as possible. For that to happen it needs to stay legal.

[anriana]

and I'm sure lack of contraception and sex education has little to do with the number of unplanned pregnancies.

Seriously? I can't even come up with a response to that other than asking if you're really serious there. You really don't think that access to contraception and knowledge of how it works has much to do with unplanned pregnancies?