What's the deal with sex?

[MystyGlyttyr]

I was reading the banning abortion thread and some of the arguments on there, and I got to being curious. And I had no idea where to place this as I don't think it's a "Woe" but it IS social, so...

PLEASE keep in mind, this is only the question of a curious mind. I'm not disrespecting anyone's life choices. As long as you don't harm another person or their belongings without consent, I don't particularly give a flying fart what you do. So please don't get mad at me for dissing you or anything because I'M NOT.

It just amazes me, honestly amazes me, how ANGRY people can get at the very thought of not being able to have sex whenever they want. Some of the harshest arguments I've seen here and elsewhere are over someone taking control of "in the bedroom," and not just so far as reproductive rights.

Admittedly, I've never had sex, so I don't know anything about it. So, I guess I'm just curious about what it is about sex that's so wonderful and tremendous that people are willing to scream and claw and fight over it.

I've read all the "it's a way to express love" and "consummating relationships" and whatnot and that sounds all well and good. But just as many people fly in a rage over the idea of not being able to just, for lack of a better phrase, screw around willy-nilly, which to me is less of a way of expressing love and more of a way to satisfy a basic animal urge...when it seems to me (translation: CASUAL OPINION) it'd be so much more less complicated to just, er, do it yourself?

Is it just instinct to be defensive of the reproductive act (you know, like two animals fighting over the same female for the right to pass on their genes), or is there something more to it?

I don't think there is a "wrong" answer, like I said, this is a question of an outsider to this society being curious about how it works. No different than going to a foreign country and asking why they use twigs instead of readily available cutlery.

[Greenday]

But just as many people fly in a rage over the idea of not being able to just, for lack of a better phrase, screw around willy-nilly, which to me is less of a way of expressing love and more of a way to satisfy a basic animal urge...when it seems to me (translation: CASUAL OPINION) it'd be so much more less complicated to just, er, do it yourself?

The problem is, sex isn't just something to satisfy the physical urge people get. There's also a social aspect to it. It's as much as one as the other.

I think the main thing is that we don't see why other people should have the right to tell us what we can and can't do with outselves. This isn't like drugs where you are hurting yourself. This is sex. Two people get together, have sex, then life goes on as normal. It has absolutely no effect on anyone else (as long as you aren't cheating on someone, but that's a whole different thing), so why should they care what is going on?

[MystyGlyttyr]

The problem is, sex isn't just something to satisfy the physical urge people get. There's also a social aspect to it. It's as much as one as the other.

Okay. At the risk of making you feel like you're giving "the talk"... (I sorry)

How is it social?

[Greenday]

I'm 20 years old. I'm not giving anyone "the talk" anytime soon. I just file it under random college discussions.

It's social in that you are interacting and bonding with another person. It's intercourse, except it's sexual and not verbal.

[blas87]

I got so riled up over it because I don't think you should have to wait until marriage to have sex, nor do I think sex is purely for married people trying to have babies.

It's a natural thing. Humans have sex. Animals have sex. Everything has sex, whether with another, or itself.

If you are being safe and responsible and you're an adult, who cares if you have sex or not?

[Pedersen]

Excellent question. And phrased perfectly, too.

The smartass in me wants to reply with "Why shouldn't two people be allowed to have sex whenever they want?" but that won't actually be an answer, just me being a smartass

Sex, simply put, is different things for different people. As such, the answer to your question is different for each one of them.

Before exploring those groups, there is an important thing to note: The concept of intimacy. For the vast majority of people, sex is an intimate experience. Intimate, in this case, means that it is something special for the individual, under control of the individual, and has no connotations on privacy (especially since there are quite a few people who enjoy both exhibitionism and voyeurism). I don't think that any of the groups I'm about to mention would agree to having some sort of "monitor" (person, computer, whatever) watching them engage in sexual activities at all times, not even the exhibitionists would. They prefer to control when people can see them.

Keep all of that in mind as you read.

For some, it's exclusively for procreation. To them, abortion and birth control will be wrong because they defeat the purpose of sex. Also, they don't agree that people should be allowed to have sex willy-nilly because, again, that's not what it's there for.

Another group sees it as the ultimate expression of love and trust between two people. For them, the primary reason for sex is to share intimate time with someone you love. Casual sex is difficult for this group (and that's at best).

Others see sex as primarily something to do for fun. This group will still prefer to have sex with people they care about, simply because good feelings about your partner enhance the sexual experience. But the primary purpose is to enjoy yourself.

Another group uses sex as a means to control another. This can take a variety of forms along the spectrum from consensual, meaning the person being controlled has deliberately and consciously allowed the transference of control, all the way up to forced submission, more commonly called rape.

Very few people fall exclusively into one of these groups, by the way. For instance, personally, casual sex is not something I can handle very well emotionally. I'm more in the "expression of love" group. However, there are times that I have had casual sex and not had emotional issues from it.

So, I guess what I'm saying overall is that there is no one single answer, unfortunately. But, for people who do wish to engage in sexual activities, whatever the reason, I don't believe in restricting them to anything other than safe, sane, and consensual. Putting any other restrictions on it means that somebody is forcing their way into a place and time where they are not wanted.

[Boozy]

The smartass in me wants to reply with "Why shouldn't two people be allowed to have sex whenever they want?" but that won't actually be an answer, just me being a smartass

Actually, I don't think that's necessarily a smart-ass remark. I think you might have had a point there.

What consenting adults do with their own bodies should be no one's business but their own, as long as they don't hurt others in the process. That's why the abortion issue is so polarizing. If you believe that a fetus is a person, then abortion harms (kills) that person, so arguably one's reproductive choices are up for discussion.

Outside of reproductive choices, it's easy to see why someone feels that their sexual choices should be entirely their own. It has nothing to do with how good or bad it is, whether you do it for intimacy or just kicks, or whether you're into men, women, or both. Like most adults, I've made both good and bad decisions when it comes to sex. But they were my decisions about my body. No one else has the right to an opinion about that as far as I'm concerned.

[anriana]

Do you think that people in the abortion thread are angry over "not being able to have sex whenever they want" or did that just lead you to thinking about this question?

Edit: Boozy said this better and more succinctly while I was typing.

I'm passionate about sex because it is one of those things that doesn't affect anyone other than myself, my partner, and anyone else we allow to be affected by our carnal relations. I can understand why people are passionate about gun control or vegetarianism or even abortion, even if I don't agree with them, but I can't for the life of me understand why Texas legislators cared if two men wanted to sodomize each other with dildos. I can read the textbook reasons, but I just can't wrap my head around that mindset.


Abortion is especially passionate because the two sides perceive things completely different. Pro-life people see a living human baby with a right to life while pro-choice people see a fetus with no rights. To people who are ardently pro-choice, many of the things that pro-life people say are criticizing and condemning a completely private act between two people because the potential fetus would not have personhood even if it was conceived.


How would you feel if someone told you that masturbating was wrong/sinful/immoral? If they ostracized you for masturbating? If they told you it would cause permanent emotional and psychological damage and make you incapable of having a fulfilling sexual relationship? If they told you that you, as a woman, shouldn't enjoy masturbation or are actually incapable of doing so? If they told you that the only reason you jill is because your father didn't love you and you're trying to fill the damaged void that left in your psyche? These are all things that are said to people who have casual sex - does transposing them to your personal sexual experiences help you understand why people get so upset over it?


To me, masturbation and sex with a partner are completely separate acts. Masturbation is about racing to orgasm for tension/menstrual relief or for yummy sleep chemicals. Sex with a partner is way, way more, on both a physical and a mental/emotional level.

Another group sees it as the ultimate expression of love and trust between two people. For them, the primary reason for sex is to share intimate time with someone you love. Casual sex is difficult for this group (and that's at best).

Others see sex as primarily something to do for fun. This group will still prefer to have sex with people they care about, simply because good feelings about your partner enhance the sexual experience. But the primary purpose is to enjoy yourself.

Another group uses sex as a means to control another. This can take a variety of forms along the spectrum from consensual, meaning the person being controlled has deliberately and consciously allowed the transference of control, all the way up to forced submission, more commonly called rape.

I find it interesting (and confusing) that you categorize consensual BDSM with rape and then quote the SSC motto.

[Pedersen]

Actually, I don't think that's necessarily a smart-ass remark. I think you might have had a point there.

Except that answer competely fails to answer Mysty's question.

Something that Mysty has noted on many occasions is that she has zero interest in sex. As such, she's not asking "Why should people be allowed or disallowed to have sex?" For that question, the smartass response is a valid response.

She's asking "I don't understand why people care so much about it. Help me out." My answer is still mostly a non-answer, but I hope it helps to part the clouds over that mystery a little bit for her.

What consenting adults do with their own bodies should be no one's business but their own, as long as they don't hurt others in the process. That's why the abortion issue is so polarizing. If you believe that a fetus is a person, then abortion harms (kills) that person, so arguably one's reproductive choices are up for discussion.

Actually, that's only part of why that issue is so polarizing. Look back at that first group I mentioned: They believe that sex is purely for procreation, and nothing else. Allowing sex for any purpose outside of procreation is a rejection of their beliefs, and a statement that they are wrong in what they believe.

Once you state that someone else's beliefs are wrong, things tend to go from bad to worse very quickly, with each side perceiving themselves as under attack from the other.

Now, with that, I'm going way way off topic, so going to close up this post.

And then I saw a new post before I hit submit, so back on topic:

I find it interesting (and confusing) that you categorize consensual BDSM with rape and then quote the SSC motto.

It's possible that I grossly misunderstand the BDSM mindset, but I see control as being a very important part of the activities they engage in. Furthermore, rape is predominantly about control (from all reports I've seen). As such, they are on the same spectrum: Control. On the one end is someone voluntarily giving it up, and the other end is people being coerced into giving it up.

In fact, that's what I originally said, that they were extreme ends of that spectrum.

With that understanding, why would it be so confusing?

[MystyGlyttyr]

Do you think that people in the abortion thread are angry over "not being able to have sex whenever they want" or did that just lead you to thinking about this question?

The latter. It's an observation I've made several times before, it's just not something I've ever felt I had friends who were mature enough to rationally discuss until I came into the CS.com community.

*cut of the questions about masturbating*

I wouldn't really know on that, either, because I've never done it. I've never had ANY sort of sexual experience, be it self or coupled...at least not one where it were something I was aware of as a sexual thing. I'm sure I did the usual child-exploring-body stuff, but I'm guessing that doesn't count and at any rate, I don't remember doing it either, I'm just pretty sure it's something all kids do at one point or another.

This is probably why the subject of sex is just so baffling to me. Complete and utter lack of experience whatsoever *snerk*

[novicecrafter]

Sex, probably one of the most debated and fought over natural acts the human has. It really goes back pretty far in a sociological context. Before birth control society wanted to have a say in womens reproductive rights. I wont get into too much detail but I think part of it is the natural animal instinct males have to guard their mates (to make sure their genes get passed on instead of someone elses) and back before we had birth control the only way to make sure of paternity. Its a way to make sure the "fittest" pass on their genes. Imagine being an animal who fought and clawed you way to rights with a female only to be beaten to the "punch" by another lesser male. Doesnt make biological sense.

Now the remarkable human ability to think and the influence of society made it so much more complicated. Thankfully we are way beyond the concept of just keeping a woman locked up and away from other males. (well in the states anyways). How do you get a woman to give up her reproductive rights/choice? Well by force or perhaps even more effective is telling everyone in society that sex is wrong, dirty and shameful. This is not an attack against men, I just view it as a natural self organization that all soceity has to go through in order for so many to live together. We have come so much farther. Now with the advent of birth control and the relaxation of social control sex is viewed in a completely different way. It is pleasurable, fun, reproduction, intimicy and even for just relaxation. There is a reason that humans get frusterated if they dont have it for awhile. It releases all sorts of good hormones and feelings (which is why animals do it without understanding it on the level we do).

Unfortunately it can also have negative effects. I cannot think of a more vulnerable state for a human to be in then when he/she is having sex. You open yourself up to the other person in a way that is unmatched. This can cause pain. It can cause jealously, stds, unwanted pregnancy, regret among other things. I think we all have the best intentions wether we view sex as a shameful thing to be avoided or the opposite. We are just trying to follow the rules of society and our parents (who keep us safe from harm). Culture is vital and having some code of ethics/behaviour really matters to most people. Put billions together with different and passionate views on the same thing and you will have tension.

I think a lot of the people who are very concerned with what others are doing who are not part of their social circle have some latent desires to be doing the same thing. How many of us are disgusted with rich people or famous people or whatever but if you really ask yourself you are probably just a little bit jealous of how easy that person has it. Its not entirely this however.

Imagine a pedophile. I cannot think of anyone who does not react with anger and disgust at the though. How many of us wish that everyone who engages in this horrible act would be sterilized, castrated, and even raped themselves. This obviously doesnt stem from latent desires. It goes against a strong strong taboo. Yet in some places even that is the norm so people do not understand our hatred of it.

Sex is a natural urge. I would go so far as to say that most living things have a singular purpose coded into their genes. Mate and die. So I think sex is a more powerful urge then eating or sleeping.

*shrugs* All that being said I think humans have evolved (socially) past this point. I dont think it is an all consuming drive as much as just a very important one. Personally I do not plan on having children. I dont hate them or even dislike them. As a woman people look at me strangely. That is what females do, mate and bear young. I just dont want to and have never had the urge.

If you dont want to have sex or view it differently I think you are completely normal. The human creature is amazing. We can override natural instinct with our minds and choices.

[anriana]

I wouldn't really know on that, either, because I've never done it. I've never had ANY sort of sexual experience, be it self or coupled...at least not one where it were something I was aware of as a sexual thing. I'm sure I did the usual child-exploring-body stuff, but I'm guessing that doesn't count and at any rate, I don't remember doing it either, I'm just pretty sure it's something all kids do at one point or another.

Oh I see, I thought since you referenced it in the post you had some experience with it.

It's possible that I grossly misunderstand the BDSM mindset, but I see control as being a very important part of the activities they engage in.

Furthermore, rape is predominantly about control (from all reports I've seen). As such, they are on the same spectrum: Control. On the one end is someone voluntarily giving it up, and the other end is people being coerced into giving it up.

In fact, that's what I originally said, that they were extreme ends of that spectrum.

With that understanding, why would it be so confusing?

Dominance, discipline, submission, bondage, sadism, masochism. Only the first half are strictly related to control, and as BDSM has become a bit of an umbrella term for many fetishes, I would say way less than half of the activities classified as BDSM are about control.

I would never isolate power play (or D/s or the part of BDSM that actually is about control, whatever you want to call it) from the second and third reasons for having sex. People who participate in it don't have sex as a means to give/receive control; we have sex where we give up/take control because we want to show love/trust to our partner or because it's enjoyable. Rapists, in general, don't rape because they've fetishized power and have their most fulfilling sexual experiences that way; they rape because they're fucking assholes who don't like the word no.

Generally people who use the phrase SSC understand the lifestyle it originates from, and don't say kinksters and rapists have the same sexuality. Hence, confusing.

[Pedersen]

Generally people who use the phrase SSC understand the lifestyle it originates from, and don't say kinksters and rapists have the same sexuality. Hence, confusing.

I see a need to quote myself. Please feel free to re-read the original posts, too. You'll see that they are unedited from when I hit submit.

Another group uses sex as a means to control another. This can take a variety of forms along the spectrum from consensual, meaning the person being controlled has deliberately and consciously allowed the transference of control, all the way up to forced submission, more commonly called rape.

It's possible that I grossly misunderstand the BDSM mindset, but I see control as being a very important part of the activities they engage in. Furthermore, rape is predominantly about control (from all reports I've seen). As such, they are on the same spectrum: Control. On the one end is someone voluntarily giving it up, and the other end is people being coerced into giving it up.

Please, please, please tell me where I said that BDSM people have the same sexuality as a rapist? I said that they are in the same spectrum. As it just so happens, Merriam Webster Online defines spectrum thusly:

spec·trum Listen to the pronunciation of spectrum
Pronunciation:
\ˈspek-trəm\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural spec·tra Listen to the pronunciation of spectra \-trə\ or spectrums
Etymology:
New Latin, from Latin, appearance — more at specter
Date:
1671

1 a: a continuum of color formed when a beam of white light is dispersed (as by passage through a prism) so that its component wavelengths are arranged in order b: any of various continua that resemble a color spectrum in consisting of an ordered arrangement by a particular characteristic (as frequency or energy): as (1): electromagnetic spectrum (2): radio spectrum (3): the range of frequencies of sound waves (4): mass spectrum c: the representation (as a plot) of a spectrum
2 a: a continuous sequence or range <a wide spectrum of interests> <opposite ends of the political spectrum> b: kinds of organisms associated with a particular situation (as an environment) c: a range of effectiveness against pathogenic organisms <an antibiotic with a broad spectrum>

Pay especial attention to definition 2a. In case it doesn't stand out enough from that copy/paste, I'll quote it separately:

2 a: a continuous sequence or range <a wide spectrum of interests> <opposite ends of the political spectrum>

In case my point is still not clear, some further analogies: Black is in the same electromagnetic spectrum as white. Lies are in the same speaking spectrum as truth. Science is in the same knowledge spectrum as religion. Generous is in the same monetary spectrum with greedy.

I never said that BDSM people are rapists. I never said they share the same sexuality. I said they do share the same spectrum with other people who need/use control in sex.

Dominance, discipline, submission, bondage, sadism, masochism. Only the first half are strictly related to control, and as BDSM has become a bit of an umbrella term for many fetishes, I would say way less than half of the activities classified as BDSM are about control.

Dominance, discipline, submission: You agree they're about control.

Bondage, though, isn't? Having someone tied up and unable to do anything isn't about control (sometimes being reduced to only being able to flinch and/or moan in response, depending on the level of bondage)?

Sadism and masochism: I agree they're not directly about control, though I do feel they are closely related. Sadism (using M-W again):

sadism


Main Entry:
sa·dism Listen to the pronunciation of sadism
Pronunciation:
\ˈsā-ˌdi-zəm, ˈsa-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
International Scientific Vocabulary, from Marquis de Sade
Date:
1888

1: a sexual perversion in which gratification is obtained by the infliction of physical or mental pain on others (as on a love object) — compare masochism
2 a: delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty

Infliction of pain. The recipient either must allow it to happen, or have it forced on him/her. The Sadist is in control. Definitely related.

Masochism is about the reception of pain. Again, the release of control.

Sounds to me very much like control is very much a part of all aspects of what you have mentioned.

However, since it seems to need to be said: kinksters are not rapists. Does that help at all?

[MystyGlyttyr]

Oh I see, I thought since you referenced it in the post you had some experience with it.

Nah, but...as a creature of a far too logical mind (think Vulcan), it just seems that if one is having sex only to satisfy the urge, it would be a lot less painful and more efficient to just handle it yourself rather than dragging another person into the equation. But if that's not the case, then...

Guh.

Holy crap, sex is a complicated thing...

[the_std]

Yeah, Mysty, I find that sex is pretty much the least logical thing in this whole entire existence. It's also very hard to understand entirely without experiencing it.

I always thought it was over-rated, over-hyped and over-everything'd until I had it for the first time. And now... It's almost like a religious experience. There's a saying that the closest a living person can come to Nirvana is through a true orgasm, and I find some truth in that.