Fatties and their Haters

[AFPheonix]

You CAN park the snarky attitude. As I said, I'd not had the chance to read them yet.

I fail to see how that was all that snarky to you. I read the article abstract and skimmed the body, and that's what they concluded, contrary to what the fat blog would like people to believe. I'm not attacking you, I'm going after people who purposefully misrepresent information.

[DesignFox]

I was using an average for my calorie estimate -- 40 year old female, 5'10", 150lbs, exercising 30-60 minutes a day. As for the 1500 calories being what people try to stay under, you're seriously telling me you did not notice that at least twice it has been stated that that is the poster's goal? And thats just this thread... I can link to at least a half dozen threads I've participated in or read in the past year where people were advocating down to 800 calories a day as being the magic amount that will 'fix' everyone.

<snip>

Um, If you're talking about me, I specifically mentioned that for MY, not everyone's, just MY, body type and calorie needs, I stay BETWEEN 1,500 and 2,000.

If you are 5' 10" and 150 lbs, you are almost a foot taller than me and 30 lbs heavier.

I would presume that your body has different needs from mine.

AND if you'll go back and re-read my posts, I'm going to say this for the last time, I agree that it is rude to simply assume that someone wants or needs help losing weight. AND I even agree that it's wrong to demonize someone for being fat.

If however, a person DOES feel unhappy because they are fat, then they should DO something about it and quit complaining. Otherwise, they don't get my sympathy.

The only point I do disagree on, is that being obese is healthy. Sorry. When someone starts getting 100-200 lbs overweight, that isn't healthy. More power to the person who is happy that way. I don't care- afterall- that person isn't directly affecting me- but they probably aren't healthy.

My own experience with weight gain was quite negative. I was quite lethargic. There's a lot of things that improved *for me* when I lost that extra weight. And I am trying to trim up a bit further. But I don't starve myself. I don't go on crash diets or use dietary aids. And I certainly don't over exert myself. Nor do I do any of those things that people with genuine eating disorders do. Nor do I advocate such things.

I have known more than one person who was physically fit that could be described as heavy or overweight. (one's quite the equestrian- she fox hunts 3 days a week, year round...you'd never know it by her appearance!)

And, at least on THIS thread, I didn't see a single person advocating the consumption of 800 or less calories in a day... Nor did I see a single person mention a specific number that will "fix" anyone.

I think a few people shared what worked for them, for the couple of people that described their situations and wanted to know.

AND I think almost everyone stipulated that they understood that everyone's bodies and dietary needs are different.

Where's that dead horse beating icon?

[BlaqueKatt]

When I went to the clinic for migraines, the doctor told me, "Well, exercising for 30 minutes a day would help." Um, how exactly? *sigh*

well actually exercise has been proven to help migraine sufferers-

"The findings show that the program decreased the frequency of migraines and improved quality of life.

Some migraine patients have found that regular exercise helps in reducing the frequency of migraines, and many headache experts recommend exercise in migraines."

from relieve migraine headache.com

Why Exercise can help you!
Not convinced? Think you're better off just taking a pill? Don't see the connection between headache and exercise? Here's how exercise makes a difference if you are dealing with headaches.
» Reduced muscle tension You know, all that tension that makes you feel tired out all the time, that makes you not want to exercise in the first place? Another headache and exercise link.
» Reduced anxiety which makes it easier to cope with any kind of pain
» Toned up blood vessels, a place where an important part of the migraine and headache chain-reaction takes place.
» Increased relaxation in general
» Increased blood and lymph circulation That means more oxygen in (an important headache-fighter), and more toxins out!
» Reduced fatigue Some people believe that fatigue itself is a migraine trigger, or perhaps the lack of exercise that results.
» Improved sleep, more sleep Very important for the migraineur for a number of reasons!
» Improved digestion This means more nutrients that your body needs, and quick removal of toxins.» Muscles less likely to spasm and trigger a headache.
» Blocking of “bad” chemicals Exercise causes complex chemical changes in the brain. Some believe that when some of these “good” chemicals start flowing, they actually block the “bad” chemicals that can be part of the migraine chain-reaction.
» Increased endorphins in the body. Endorphins are your body's natural painkillers. They also help you feel better overall. The problem is that endorphin levels often seem to be low in migraineurs, and frequent use of painkillers can lower the level still further. If you can increase the endorphins through exercise, you're decreasing your need for other painkillers and ending the downward spiral. Endorphins are a huge headache and exercise bonus.

What if you had a pill that did all that? And that's only a few of the benefits that directly impact people with headaches. We could list many more. Why not give exercise a second chance? You may find that the headache and exercise link could change your life!



heck enter the search term "Exercise helping migraines" in google and the first page is full of studies where aerobic exercise reduces frequency of migraine attacks. My migraine attacks decreased from two a week to once a month when I started riding my bike to and from work.

but hey of course the doctor was just picking on your weight-not trying to help with migraines

sometimes a cigar is just a cigar


I agree with DF on the complaining thing, if you don't want to fix anything* you have no right to complain about about it.

It's like complaining you're getting rained on but refusing to open the umbrella in your hand for whatever reason

*anything meaning anything from feeling bad because you're overweight(not because of what others say-there's over 6 billion people on the planet, one person's opinion doesn't hold much weight), to being in an abusive relationship, to being depressed.

I have no sympathy for those that won't try to fix their problems(their own self-identified problems, not problems others may think they have)-but want to complain about them-example- my coworker "J" is constantly complaining about her BF hitting her(well he hits her back after she hits him),does she do anything other than complain? Nope, so no sympathy.

[Nyoibo]

Fat acceptance, www.bigfatfacts.com, one assumes that there is also support for pro-ana then too, because it's the same thing.

[BroomJockey]

Fat acceptance, www.bigfatfacts.com, one assumes that there is also support for pro-ana then too, because it's the same thing.

Err, no. Close, but not quite. There's a difference between promoting acceptance of a body shape and promotion of a mental affliction, since anorexia/bulimia are recognized disorders.

I fail to see how that was all that snarky to you.

"Oh look." As in "I'm smart to have known this already and had my position confirmed." The tone was completely unnecessary. A simple statement of "The study says this" would have been fine.

[violetyoshi]

http://community.livejournal.com/chi...281#t189232281

Interfering with a working SD is a felony. And I would press charges, I don't care how young the kid is. If they're above the age of criminal responsibility, their ass is going to be charged.

Two parents are walking with their daughter, who is 4. They point out, "Oh look, a doggy!" and the kid comes running over. I place myself between her and my dog and say, "Do not touch the dog!" in a mean adult voice.

Moo and Duh immediately start yelling at me for telling their kid not to touch the dog. Duh said, and I quote, "She's only four, she doesn't know better!"

And I said, "But you're not four and you do know better. Keep your kid away from my dog or I will call the police and have you arrested for felony interference with a service dog."

They went to complain to the store manager, using choice insults like, "Fat and lazy isn't a disability, blah blah.

The manager told them to leave. And not to come back. He then apologized to me, explained that in the future an employee would accompany me around the store to handle the problem customers and children and assist me in my shopping."

Just an example of the discrimination that is allowed to be said about fat people. The manager of that store had the decency to ban those people from their store. However, most people feel it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a person is lazy simply because they don't have washboard abs.

You couldn't get away with saying, being Black isn't a disability, or Mexican, or Gay in the same regards. Yet it's alright in our society to assume, if someone isn't thin, they must be abusing the disability system, and it must be because they're fat and don't have a real problem.

[AdminAssistant]

well actually exercise has been proven to help migraine sufferers-

"The findings show that the program decreased the frequency of migraines and improved quality of life.

» Reduced muscle tension You know, all that tension that makes you feel tired out all the time, that makes you not want to exercise in the first place? Another headache and exercise link.

but hey of course the doctor was just picking on your weight-not trying to help with migraines

Just picked out a few parts.

As I explained to my doctor, this was the mid-semester, pre-Spring Break crunch. I did not have time to exercise. I wasn't getting much sleep and I was stressed to the max. It was still freakin' cold outside. I didn't see how getting up even earlier and going to the gym...so all the people there could laugh at the fatty on the elliptical was really going to improve my situation. (I know, logically, that doesn't happen, but I have self-image issues that I try to work through. I'm finally getting okay with the person in the mirror now, but I wasn't then.) Added emotional stress combined with even less sleep? No thank you. He actually did prescribe midrin, that did fuck all, so I just decided to be in pain, because I didn't have time to go back. Besides, as he also told me, I didn't have migraines, I had tension headaches. My symptoms weren't "severe" enough for a migraine. Whatevs man. They've been much much better this summer, but if they come back in the fall, I'm going back.

Riding a bike to school? Well that would be nice, if I had a spare $250 lying about for a decent bike, could ride a bike properly, and if my school wasn't at the top of a huge ass hill. And have I mentioned how cold it gets in Kansas during the winter?

Y'know, hopefully my schedule in the fall won't be so hectic (12 hours of doctoral level classes in one semester are a bad idea, btw) and I'll be able to exercise and cook more and do all those wonderful things that fit in with a healthy lifestyle. But ultimately, right now, school comes first. I have to get through this program, so that I can finally get a job and get on with my career. If that means carrying a little extra baggage around, so be it.

But all of this is besides the point of this thread, which is: I deserve to be treated the same as everyone else.

[AFPheonix]

Err, no. Close, but not quite. There's a difference between promoting acceptance of a body shape and promotion of a mental affliction, since anorexia/bulimia are recognized disorders.



"Oh look." As in "I'm smart to have known this already and had my position confirmed." The tone was completely unnecessary. A simple statement of "The study says this" would have been fine.

I apologize if I came off as snarky to anyone on the board, while I did intend snark, it was directed at the blog writers who intentionally misconstrued the paper they cited, not to you or anyone else I've been replying to here on the board.

As for the Fat Acceptance movement and pro-ana, for a segment of FA, there really is no difference between them and pro-ana people. They purposefully suck in people who are obviously mentally ill, and then when those people do get help and actually start losing weight, they are shunned. If they were truly pro-body acceptance, they would accept people's decision to lose weight just as they choose to accept people who retain their girth.

[violetyoshi]

*MOD EDIT due to excessive quoting~Please edit quotes.

If they were truly pro-body acceptance, they would accept people's decision to lose weight just as they choose to accept people who retain their girth.

They do. They just advise against losing weight, because in most cases it's a futile effort. There's yo-yo dieting, the body's resistance to starvation causing one to put more fat on after a starvation period, than before it.

I'm sure you'll just say it's like pro-ana people advising their followers against eating though.

*MOD EDIT due to excessive quoting.~Please edit quotes.


I didn't see how getting up even earlier and going to the gym...so all the people there could laugh at the fatty on the elliptical was really going to improve my situation.

I'm sure AFPheonix will be more than happy, to suggest that people making fun of you while you exercise, isn't making fun of you, it's motivation.

[ladyneeva]

Both of those blogs are classic examples of the fat advocacy does. They pick and choose out of different articles, completely represent other findings, and in general obfuscate facts to make themselves feel better.

And thats different from what the diet industry does... how exactly?

If you're really happy about being fat, then be happy. Whatever, that's your schtick. It doesn't affect me directly. BUT. Don't try to lie to make yourself feel better or even feel superior to others. It's wrong.

It's kind of hard to be happy when you can't leave your own fucking house without being told what a worthless piece of shit you are and how you should just die so that you're not wasting valuable resources. Especially hard to do when even those in support of the whole dieting thing admit it has an 80-90% or higher failure rate. So you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Oh look, obesity is associated with more deaths relative to people at normal weight.

Wow, thats juvenile. Going "I'm right and you're wrong nyah nyah nyah" is snarky in the extreme. I can't afford a JAMA membership to actually read the study under discussion myself, but I can tell right there that it is not a STUDY exactly but rather the study of a set of surveyed statistics... do we know that the statistics were relayed correctly? If all they did is look at the death certificates they're not going to get accurate results. For example, if someone dies of heart failure that is exactly what their death certificate says... "heart failure". If that same person is also "overweight" or "obese" by the BMI measurements, a study such as this would mark them down in the "death by obesity" group. Even though the heart failure could have had NOTHING to do with the weight, and the weight could have had NOTHING TO DO with the BMI.

Example, my father... his death certificate says "heart failure", and his BMI in the 70's would have been around 35 range as he was 6'4" and around 290 or 300 at the time. I seriously doubt a man who made his living climbing telephone poles while carrying 50-60lb rolls of phone line and a tool belt (we still own it and I think most of the tools are still in it, it weighs 40lbs) for 8 to 10 hours a day then went home and did all the tasks required to maintain a functional farming operation was FAT.

He also had a congenital heart condition which claimed his life at the age of 72. His death certificate says cause of death is heart failure, his BMI says he was "obese"... and a study like this would peg him as his death being caused by obesity... even though it wasn't.

If there is one example, there are probably more.

Secondly, they are including deaths caused by obesity treatment as proof of obesity causing death. For example, weight loss surgery alone, by itself, has a one year post surgery death rate of 4.6% (which is three and a half times greater than that for triple bypass surgery... an emergency procedure performed on usually 75 year old heart attack patients immediately following a heart attack while weight loss surgery is an elective procedure most often performed on fat but otherwise relatively healthy 40 year olds). Undoubtedly they also counted people with depression who killed themselves... even though there is no scientific evidence that fat causes depression but rather that the way you are treated for being fat causes depression.

And they probably also counted people who died of heart failure caused by taking fen-phen as contributing to the death by fat numbers. This weight loss drug regimen caused an estimated 50,000 cases of valvular heart disease and pulmonary hypertension (some of which resulted in death) in those taking it. It was on the market since the 70's, the numbers could be higher since a lot of doctors will see "fat" and "hypertensive" and blame the fat without considering it could be a drug interaction. Even after the news broke about that and the drugs were recalled, it's entirely likely some doctors still blamed the fat for hypertension in former fen-phen users. And thats just one diet drug cocktail... there are others, and a lot of them have side effects which can result in death.

Those are just three possible explanations for why numbers based on comparing surveyed BMI and only BMI to reported cause of death... and you also missed some important information from the results section of the report in question:

Results Relative to the normal weight category (BMI 18.5 to <25), obesity (BMI ≥30) was associated with 111 909 excess deaths (95% confidence interval [CI], 53 754-170 064) and underweight with 33 746 excess deaths (95% CI, 15 726-51 766). (1)Overweight was not associated with excess mortality (–86 094 deaths; 95% CI, –161 223 to –10 966). (2)The relative risks of mortality associated with obesity were lower in NHANES II and NHANES III than in NHANES I

1: overweight was NOT, I repeat NOT associated with excess mortality... which was the reason this study was cited on the Big Fat Facts website -- the ones shoehorned into the obese label are fewer than those in the overweight category, and it was a discussion of the overweight category NOT the obese category that caused this study to be cited on that website

2: notice that the risks of mortality went DOWN in the two newer studies... could that possibly be because medical care, as a whole, is getting better and a lot of the deaths they blamed on obesity from the earliest study might not have been caused by obesity at all? Might possibly we discover that as medical science progresses that say heart disease is caused by something other than fat and fat is merely a side effect or even completely unrelated? My opinion, and honestly it's not worth much because I haven't studied the subject in any depth.

They purposefully suck in people who are obviously mentally ill, and then when those people do get help and actually start losing weight, they are shunned.

Please tell me you did not actually just say that fat people are mentally ill if they don't diet. Because thats sure as hell what it looked like.

And as for the "complaining" thing... I AM NOT COMPLAINING THAT I AM FAT.

I am complaining because people don't fucking treat me like a human being deserving of decency.

I am complaining because I have a backache caused by having a 250lb pinball table slam me back first against a stair railing and I can't get any treatment for it even if we could afford it because I happen to also be fat (so they blame the backache on the fat rather than BEING SLAMMED INTO A WALL BY AN OBJECT THAT MASSES DAMN NEAR AS MUCH AS I DO).

I am complaining because I have a foot that even their own damn x-rays say the bones are seriously fucked up in and I can get no treatment for it because apparently organic damage caused by a bad fall when I was 12 is because I am fat now... even though at 12 I was in the 95th percentile for height but only 'average' for weight... which means I was proportionally skinnier than other girls my age, since that average weight had to cover 6" more height at least.

I am complaining because even though I would LIKE to ride my bike more, and I would LIKE to walk more and I would LIKE to swim more... every time I do any of those things it's another fucking nail in my psyche because of "children" as young as their 20's who think they need to follow me around, call me names and throw shit at me.

I am complaining because nearly every damn time I go to the grocery store, some asshole thinks it's ok to comment on whats in my cart... even though they have no idea if the food in my cart is even for me!

I am complaining because I feel like I can't even leave my house anymore without my husband, because of the intolerant assholes in my community that have actually driven me to attempt suicide at least twice this year alone, and because of the intolerant assholes in the medical community I can't even get a REFERRAL for psychological treatment, and because of the assholes in government now that my husband has lost his job I damn well BETTER succeed next time because we can't afford it if I fail without insurance.

I am complaining about living in a society where everyone from the government talking heads, to your doctor, to assholes on the internet and in the street ASSUME I eat at fast food places 3 times a day when the reality is I maybe eat there 3 times a month and that was when we had $600+ extra a paycheck to blow on whatever the hell we wanted.

I am complaining because when I DO go to a fast food place and eat maybe half a burger and half my fries I get judged for ordering fast food... while my husband sitting RIGHT NEXT TO ME eating two burgers that are usually twice the size of the one I order and fries that are also usually larger doesn't garner a second look.

I am complaining because again, everyone from the talking heads in the government to people on the internet is all "you need to eat more fruits and vegetables and whole grains!" but none of them is willing to give me the ability or wherewithal to DO it... and then when I can't do it because those things cost upwards of twice to three times as much, when I can't do it I GET BLAMED FOR IT.

I am complaining because I am getting blamed for shit that isn't even remotely my fault, such as global warming and health budget spending.

THOSE ARE THE THINGS I AM COMPLAINING ABOUT

REFERENCES:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...ct/294/15/1903
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fen-phen

[Nyoibo]

Please tell me you did not actually just say that fat people are mentally ill if they don't diet. Because thats sure as hell what it looked like.

I believe they were refering to people who have an obsesive problem or such, basically the same way pro-ana people work, other wise you could say "Please tell me you did not actually just say that thin people are mentally ill if they don't eat."

I am complaining because again, everyone from the talking heads in the government to people on the internet is all "you need to eat more fruits and vegetables and whole grains!" but none of them is willing to give me the ability or wherewithal to DO it... and then when I can't do it because those things cost upwards of twice to three times as much, when I can't do it I GET BLAMED FOR IT.

I don't know what it's like there, I have no idea what prices for food are like there, how much is fruit and veg and meat where you are?

[Boozy]

I'm sure AFPheonix will be more than happy, to suggest that people making fun of you while you exercise, isn't making fun of you, it's motivation.

Again, I have to ask: Where in this thread has AFP ever said that it is okay to make fun of overweight people?

[ladyneeva]

I don't know what it's like there, I have no idea what prices for food are like there, how much is fruit and veg and meat where you are?

Depends on what time of year it is, what area of the country it is, and what products we're discussing. Our grocery stores tend to price things in "tiers" where I live. So you'll have 2-3 products at the lowest price (typically $1/lb or $1.24 AU per 16oz), maybe 3 or 4 at the next highest price of $2/lb ($2.49 AU per 16oz) then everything else is $3/lb to $9/lb typically with a very few "luxury" items over that.

So for vegetables right now, at the $1 level you can get radishes, sweet corn, and summer squash. At the $2 level are red or green leaf lettuce, mushrooms and green beans right now.

Fruits... strawberries are the only option at the lowest level, the $2 level has cherries (finally! I've been waiting... last month they were running $4+ per pound), nectarines, and peaches.

Meats are a special case... while the prices are advertised per pound, often enough that price is only available if you get the 'family size' packages of 10lbs or if you buy whole cuts rather than just one pound

So for example, at the $1 price we can get pork shoulder right now, but it's ONLY priced that if you buy the whole shoulder -- both shank and butt ends. Thats easily 20lbs of meat. Thats about what my husband and I go through a month... no matter HOW good the deal is, eating one and only one kind of meat for an entire month isn't very appetizing. And pork shoulder is pretty fatty anyway (thats basically an unsmoked ham -- the smoking process draws out a good bit of the fat, consider how fatty it has to be before that!).

At the $2 level you can get chicken breast (in 10lb packages) pork chops (in 10lb packages) or 93% lean hamburger (in, you got it, 10lb packages).

Fish right now is starting at a minimum of $3/lb.

It's not so much that there aren't any cheap options -- it's that what is cheap either requires you to buy a massive amount (making it not cheap, and ensuring that you get sick of it) or the selection is extremely limited. Meaning you'll get very sick of it if you end up eating, say, zucchini every meal for a week.

[Nyoibo]

That's a hell of a lot cheaper than here, here pork chops are around $10-$15 a kg, ground beef is about $13 and lamb is between $15-$20, food prices are way cheaper there by the looks of it. I would suggest buying it in 10lb packages and freezing it, buy one of each of those $2 ones and there's meat for a few months, and you have variety to choose from.

[AdminAssistant]

Where I live, chicken is pretty expensive (about $6-$7 per package of chicken breasts), and even then it's the 15% rib meat injected with fluids. Beef is pretty reasonable, but I don't really eat much red meat.

Produce..eh...drawback of living in the middle of the country. You can get the really fresh, homegrown, organic stuff...if you want to pay an arm and a leg. I do have the problem that lady neeva has...it's just me. I can't go through a package of grapes or a bunch of bananas before they go bad.

Ah well. Going back home has been a nice reminder at how relatively cheap food prices in Kansas are.