Your country has problems? Just blame America!

[Boozy]

The people of Burma are not at fault for the cruelty and corruption of the criminals who took over their country by force.

Considering the great cost of removing Saddam from Iraq and the accompanying PR campaign about the US spreading "freedom and democracy", it seems disingenuous to now be claiming that America should now be obeying the will of criminal dictators. The people of Burma were (and are) desperate for assistance; they gladly accepted the help of anyone, American or otherwise, who were doing something to save the lives of their children.

I would not turn my back on an American who needed my help, regardless of the disdain I hold for their elected government. I was moved by the devastation caused by Katrina, and I donated to the Red Cross relief efforts. Is it too much to ask that Americans do the same for others?

[The Shadow]

Meh.

National anthems are ridiculous in general.

I've never "booed" when the US anthem is played at sporting events, but to be frank, that's out of respect for the musicians. Offending the delicate pride of Americans isn't really a concern for me. I don't always stand for my own anthem, either. I'm really against the whole idea of nationalism and all it's ridiculous trappings.

I totally agree. I often don't stand for my national anthem (Canadian) either. Few people realize what this act is really about. It's not about pride or respect for one's country, but about obedience and worship of the government -- a different matter altogether.

On a related note, I learned something interesting about the U.S pledge of allegiance. It was created by Francis Bellamy -- a known communist. It used to be that when one recited the pledge, you had to extend your right arm outward 45 degrees. This part of it was discontinued around World War II for obvious reasons and was replaced with putting the hand over the heart instead.

[Amethyst Hunter]

I'm really against the whole idea of nationalism and all its ridiculous trappings.

Agreed.

Having seen the past near-decade's post-9-11 aftermath, I personally think it's rather scary seeing that kind of thing here in the States. I was never more proud of my country than right after 9/11 when everyone banded together to support each other, regardless of differences - and never more horrified by and ashamed of it when our government promptly pissed all that goodwill away. IMO there's a world of difference between supporting one's home country and a blind allegiance to "leaders" that completely flies in the face of all common sense. Somebody's getting rich off all those magnetic flag/yellow car ribbons, and it sure ain't the soldiers/their families.

People love to cite that whole "my country, right or wrong" thing, but they always forget the latter half of that quote (and I'm paraphrasing since I don't remember the exact wording offhand): "to defend/protect when right, and when wrong to set right."

And AFPhoenix, thank you for throwing in that caveat about Iran. I have a very dear (American, for those who are interested) friend whose family is Iranian and it drives me crazy hearing people say "Iran is O NOES TEH EBIL!!" (Their government? Sure. The people? No way. Read Searching for Hassan by Terence Ward and The Iranians by Sandra Mackey for some insights on life in that country)

[Slytovhand]

Rightsyo... Only just getting into this one (my weekly weekend worth of Fratching...), and I'm fairly lost on what the argument is about.

From reading the articles linked, DitchDJ is having an issue with people from another nation giving their objections to the US government's recent foreign policies, and he doesn't think that those people are allowed to express this in a non-violent (or, perhaps, any) way.

I have to guess this, based merely on what little is actually said in his posts, and combining it with the actual articles.

Or is the issue that such protests are done at sporting events?...or what???

Yeah - I've read what everyone else on here has said, but it still doesn't seem to directly relate to the OP - except in the most vaguest of ways.

IF... the post is about 'attacking' the people rather than the government, then there are other threads about that.

But at the moment, as I said, this thread seems more about people making 'legitimate' protests...which I believe we would all like to think that every individual should be allowed to do (the nature of such protests... that's a different thread...)

[Boozy]

I wouldn't worry too much about what the "official" topic is here, Slyt. We're all having a good time regardless of the slightly disorganized nature of this forum.

However, if it helps, I think I can summarize the general point of the OP: ditchdj believes that America is unfairly blamed for many problems in other countries, and that jeering the Star-Spangled Banner is a symptom of that misplaced anger (please correct or clarify if necessary, ditchdj.) Hence the ensuing discussions on foreign aid, flag burning, sporting events, and nationalism.

Any one of these subjects is worthy of it's own thread, but these issues are related, and they're going to naturally arise in a debate like this. I'm not inclined to stifle creative debate by nailing down a specific topic.

You make a good point about legitimate protests. Booing a national anthem is seen as disrespectful to some, but to others it's non-violent protest. I don't think it does much good as a protest, but it's definitely better than violence.

[Slytovhand]

Well, Boozy, it was more just wondering what the actual problem was, because he didn't out and say it, so I could only presume. Besides, it makes having a debate on the issue a lot easier if we're actually debating the same thing... (as against other threads )

It does raise a point though - if we stick to the sports/politics idea - if countries want to make a stand against China and its human rights abuses, should they boycott the Olympic Games this year? Or at the very least, should head of state not attend the opening ceremony? I'm for the latter, as it's more about showing off the country and how great it is, rather than the actual comraderie between athletes (having an argument for or against the games itself should be a different thread, though).

[Boozy]

We actually do have a thread about boycotting the Olympics:

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=375

[lordlundar]

yeah, and that was one heck of a tangent from the original. Quick one too.

[the_std]

I thought that this blog post on patriotism would be an interesting addition to the debate. It was written by an ardent Democrat, but I believe that people from all of the political spectrum can take something away from it.

[Slytovhand]

yeah, and that was one heck of a tangent from the original. Quick one too.

Yep - that's what I thought too. There wasn't an actual debate on boycotting, but it ended up there (as these things go..).

I'll go read the patrotism one now...

[Greenday]

I don't agree with other countries blaming America for their problems. All this anti-American stuff from Canada is a good example. None of what's going on with the US is harming Canada. We aren't invading Canada, we aren't putting economic sanctions on Canada. If anything ever happened to Canada, America would be there in a heartbeat to help. How is harassing a bunch of kids a even somewhat decent form of protesting? It's disgraceful. The kids were there to play hockey. The game should have been all about having fun and hockey. Booing the American national anthem and telling a bunch of kids they suck because they are from America yet have NOTHING to do with American politics is just plain stupid.

America may be rude to our enemies, but at least they are our ENEMIES and not our ALLIES. It is for this reason that we don't understand why people would do this kind of crap. It is a shame that these people pull these kinds of things and make the rest of their country look bad.

[Slytovhand]

Because, Greenday, the US government does some pretty crap things, and people around the world don't agree with them. Thus, they feel the desire to let that be known - just because a country is allied with the US doesn't mean they have to go blindly along with every single thing the US does.

If you look at it another way, the US has also created enemies for Canada and other countries, so there is contention with that bit at the end.

Also, it can easily be seen as rude if the US government goes ahead with a certain policy (ie Iraq) completely in opposition to it's allies.

Now - don't get me wrong - all I'm doing is looking at the reasons... which are different to the how and where of the issue - in this case, kid's hockey games..... Booing the flag I can really get - but the kids...hmmmmmmmmmmm

[Greenday]

The reasoning is fine, they don't agree with the US Government's policy, there's nothing wrong with disagreeing. But the where and how of disagreeing is pretty important.

[Boozy]

But the where and how of disagreeing is pretty important.

I would tend to agree with that.

Like I said, I don't like booing during national anthems because it's disrespectful to the musicians. But if the national anthem represents your country and all that it stands for (bad foreign policy included), then I can see why some people would think it's fair game.

I just don't think it doesn't anything other than making people look like dicks. There are better and more effective ways of protesting.

[CancelMyService]

I still am confused with the original post, how does some people booing at a soccer game lead to one of those always-fun "US OUT OF UN NOW" rants?

Like how would America quitting the largest organization in the world solve the problem of our anthem getting booed in other countries due to our boneheaded policies?