Cops -- to serve and protect?

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I think the vids were different because they were trying to make slightly different point for the same argument.

Vid one: Illustrated how even the most innocent guy, even an innocent guy with a good alibi, who is telling only the truth and nothing but, could get screwed by nothing more than the perception, even the mistaken perception, of other people. The 5th Amendment states that you cannot be compelled to speak as a witness against yourself. You have a right to remain silent. So remail silent. It's not up to you to defend your innocence, it's up to them to prove you guilty. Which they will do if you if they get enough rope to hang you. Which you will give them if you don't hush.

Vid Two: Illustrated how it did'nt matter if you were guilty or innocent. You still have the right to maintain your constitutional protection against illegal search under the 4th Amendment. I don't care if you have a bong laying on the seat next to you. I think the point of the vid was that circumstances do not matter. Maintain your rights and let the lawyers and courts sort it out.

[jayel]

I understand. And I definitely understand about not talking with the cops without a lawyer, lest your words get twisted.

I would however like to see a video demonstrating what the harm would be, if any, in allowing a search of your property if you have nothing to hide.

[Pedersen]

Here's the problem: As I stated, we all have something to hide, we just don't know what it is. As such, any video which would try to show that would be a failure.

Why? Because any video which showed it would show someone breaking the law. From your responses so far, you'd discount it just on that basis alone.

As such, I propose an experiment from you. Call your local police. Tell them you're breaking some law, but you don't know which one. Ask them to come to your home and search it, so you can learn which ones they are and rectify the situation. Video tape the search and all happenings, and post it for all to see.

Let me know how it goes.

[jayel]

You don't have to be so defensive. I'm not trying to turn this into a debate.

I'm pretty sure I know that the last time I got pulled over for speeding I didin't have any contraband in my car and could have submitted to a search without repurcussion. I'd simply like to see what the creators of these videos have to say in these circumstances. With no contraband in the car, could it have possibly resulted in a bad situation for me?

Video one and video two are displaying different concepts. I'm more interested in the second right now, and you're trying to mix the two. There's a big difference between being in possesion of illegal/ stolen material (video 2) and having your words twisted (video 1). Like I said, I see the benefit of video 1. Video 2 seems only necessary if you actually have something to hide. Or, like RK said, if you just want to exercise your rights for the sake of doing so.

[Sylvia727]

Or, like RK said, if you just want to exercise your rights for the sake of doing so.

"Just for the sake of doing so"? I trust me to look out for me a lot farther than some stranger cop to look out for me.

Say I do break the law; why shouldn't I get a lawyer and fight it in order to get a better deal? 86% of defendants take a deal, according to the first video. I want one, too, if I'm actually guilty. Sure, the law lets them hang me with 5 years of prison time, but maybe I can get that down to 1 year of jail time or 3 years of probation.

Or, say I break the law but don't do anything unethical; peyote, for example, is an illegal hallucinogin used by some Native Americans for religious rituals. Say I give my underaged child wine as the blood of Christ in my church. There are a thousand different ways I can break the law without doing anything wrong. And since the cops seldom tell their suspects everything and frequently lie, I'm exercising my rights to protect me from them, not only if I'm innocent, but also if I'm guilty and don't want the cops giving me more than I deserve.

[Greenday]

This thread is starting to make me paranoid and making me think I should take that detour sign out of my car...

[Boozy]

The question is not why wouldn't an honest person consent to a search, but why would they?

A police officer rummaging through my personal belongings would feel very intrusive, and I don't owe them any favours. So why would I allow it? Are they going to allow me to look through all their personal shit too? No? Then get a warrant, and show me you have a reason to be invasive.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Jayel, I guess the thing with allowing the search would at that point be very similar to talking too much.

The first vid illustrates why even an innocent person should not talk. Because their words might get twisted. Probably what happned to my friend I mentioned who got arrested.

However, even if you kept your mouth shut, but then allowed a search of your vehicle, it might be similar to talking too much. I guess kind of like the black guy at the bus stop in the second vid. Suppose he had said "go ahead and search my bags I know I'm innocent, I have nothing to hide." They find paint and brushes and linseed oil. He's booked, because lo and behold they are looking for a grafitti artist.

You can accidently incriminate yourself with your words, but I imagine you can do the same by showing a cop what you are carrying, if he interprets what he is seeing a certain way.

I mean, right now, if my van was searched, they'd find rope, duct tape, a tire iron, gloves, a machete, a change of clothes and shoes, and a raincoat. Sometimes, I have a videocamera. I hike. I've been stranded a few times. I keep hiking and camping gear in my van. These items are pretty innocent on the surface. Now imagine that my husband is driving my van alone. Now imagine that he drives through a "licence check" right after a serial rapist/ murderer was spotted in the area.

If he consents to a search at that point, he's going downtown in handcuffs.

[crazylegs]

I mean, right now, if my van was searched, they'd find rope, duct tape, a tire iron, gloves, a machete, a change of clothes and shoes, and a raincoat. Sometimes, I have a videocamera. I hike. I've been stranded a few times. I keep hiking and camping gear in my van. These items are pretty innocent on the surface. Now imagine that my husband is driving my van alone. Now imagine that he drives through a "licence check" right after a serial rapist/ murderer was spotted in the area.

If he consents to a search at that point, he's going downtown in handcuffs.

Maybe so, however there is no evidence tying him to the offences committed, he just needs to keep shtum and get a lawyer.

We all have things that can be misconstrued, for example I own the following

Bullet Proof vest (personal property, not current work related)
Full Camo outfit
Assault Vest
British Army webbing
Assault boots
Camo face paint
Marskmanship manuals
Principles of flight manuals

I used to be involved with the Air Training Corps and have no 'safe' way of disposing it.

I know that I can justify my belongings, a person who owns them unlawfully won't be able to justify all of them.

[Norton]

Maybe, but do you really want to be detained as a possible suspect in a crime? If you decline a search, and you haven't committed a crime, you'll most likely be free to go. If you consent to a search, and suspicious items are found, you could be dragged down to the station, put into holding, interrogated, etc. Some people are then coerced into signing false confessions.

You may think you have reasonable and lawful excuses for your posessions, but will the police see it that way? Or will they see you as a good liar, who only needs to be harrassed or intimidated to get to the truth? I doubt the police trust you as much as you seem to trust them. You don't get points for honesty, and there are legally no negative repercussions for declining a search, so then why consent to a search without a warrant?

Guilty or not, everyone's best bet to not be incriminated for something is to not offer the police more than is legally required.

Personally, I've had no problems with the police, and I have a lot of respect for them. However, I will not consent to a search of my vehicle, home, or belongings. I will not waive my 4th and 5th amendment rights, whether I'm guilty of something or not.

[crazylegs]

If you consent to a search, and suspicious items are found,

If it's in my house then they require a Warrant (UK law) however if I'm on the street they do NOT require my consent to search either myself nor my car if it's in a public place, if there are grounds to suspect my involvement in crime (either myself or my vehicle matches the description given) the UK police may search me without my consent and may use force to do so. Force must be proportionate and nessecary, cuffs may be used (but only if the PC fears violence or that the subject may attempt escape).

I do trust the police, as I work with them day in day out. (I'm not a police officer but I'm almost in a half way house situation)

[anriana]

Do police need a warrant or just probable cause in America?

[Greenday]

If they actually see something, they can search. But if they don't actually see something themselves, they need a warrant.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

If they do not have probable cause, then they need a warrent.

If they do have probable cause, then they can search without a warrent. The only thing with that is that if they find something, and it is found that they did NOT have probable cause, then any evidence obtained can be suppressed in court.

In other words, they don't need a warrent or your consent to search. But if the are found to have searched illegally, as in neither having a warrent or consent, then anything they find is inadmissible in court, and they could be liable.

It will not do them any good to do an illegal search.

[Greenday]

Even the warrants here have to be very specific about what's being searched. For instance, let's say I have a house with a seperated garage. If the police come up to me with a warrant to search my house, then find a huge stockpile of cocaine in my garage, they can't use it against me since they had no legal grounds to be in my garage.