Bullying, and how I dealt with it...

[Lace Neil Singer]

I will say this; I'm not actually a violent person. However, if someone starts with me, they will regret it.

When I was at school, I went to an all girls school and girls are worse than boys in some respects. I was fairly small til I reached third year; by then, I'd shot up in height and had also piled on the weight as I was suffering from compulsive eating disorder cuz by third year, I'd been bullied continously for three years. I towered over the girls who bullied me; however, I didn't know my own strength cuz til the moment I snapped, I'd never fought back.

My breaking point was when this girl who was one of the main bullies came up to me and clawed me accross the face. She had really long nails and drew blood. I just completely lost it and started punching her in the face til she fell down, then kicked her repeatedly til a teacher ran up and pulled me off her. I got suspended for a week for that, and the bully got away scot free as far as school punishment went cuz, in the headmaster's words, "she was worse hurt". The fact that she'd started the fight meant nothing to him.

Even after I returned to school, I still had a lot of trouble from the other bullies but after that, I wasn't scared of them any more. It was as tho I'd suddenly had a realisation of "I'm taller, heavier and stronger than them. They can't hurt me any more, but I can hurt them." By the way, the bullying wasn't just verbal; there were trips, pushes and hair pulling as well. But I answered all that with punches and kicks. I threw a chair at a girl who was laughing at me. In the end, I was being kept in isolation in the deputy head's office instead of being in class, and the bullies feared me.

I still firmly believe that physical violence is the only thing that most bullies understand. They'll just keep on with their spite and nastiness til their victim delivers an epic smackdown.

[Jester]

I guess it depends on the situation. Getting punished by the school is a sign of weakness, and if the victim's attack was also weak or was broken up too soon, it might have not invoked fear in the bully but rather reinforcement and encouragement. The victim, on the other hand, is discouraged by what happened and might be less aggressive the next time.

In your case, the bullies not only saw that you ripped them a new one, but didn't face any consequences for your actions (except for that one time you were suspended for a day, but then so was the bully in that case).

1. I don't agree that being punished by the school is a sign of weakness. If the victim is punished and the bully isn't, it may make the bully feel like he/she is above the system, or invincible, or whatever, but if the victim is punished and the bully isn't, but the victim managed to knock the bully into next week, I am pretty sure the bully won't be too concerned about what, if any, trouble the victim got into.

2. I do agree that when the victim fights back, it needs to be swift, brutal, and violent. Not just a token swing that misses or grazes, followed by an ass-kicking at the hands of the bully. Clearly that won't work. It has to be the equivalent of a Ray Lewis tackle--something that they'll either never forget, or won't remember because of how much their head was spun around by it.

3. I don't think you can use my cases to illustrate that point. In grade school, whether or not I had been punished, I sent Michael to the nurse's office. Even if I hadn't, he saw the look in my eyes when I had my hands wrapped around his throat. They could have suspended me for a week, and he never would have come near me again. As for Gary, while the damage inflicted wasn't on the same level, he also saw what I was capable of, and as a big fat fuck of a coward, he wanted no part of it--he had only given me shit because he had a clear size advantage. Again, they could have suspended me for a week, but my cold fury left him shaken for years. As for the incident in high school, well, that happened outside of school and off school property. Which is, I'm pretty sure, what those dirtbags counted on, that they couldn't get in trouble with the school--if they were even in school. But again, because of the brutality of the response, I think that even if I had faced consequences, say if a cop had been passing by and arrested me or some such, those two learned that the skinny nerdy kid wasn't such an easy target.

My point is not that I'm a badass. I'm not. My point is that the consequences to the victim after they strike back really have little to no bearing on the mindset of the bullies, IF the victim's response is swift and brutal and leaves no room for anything but fear in the minds of the bullies, who are, after all, cowards to begin with.

It may surprise some of you to know that I am not a fan of violence per se, or unnecessary brutality. But what we are talking about here is NECESSARY brutality. Striking back at a tormentor in such a way that they will never, ever think about tormenting you again. And that they might even advise their bully friends to stay away from you, too. "Dude, don't fuck with Jones--he's a whack job, and he'll knife you." Whether or not their assessment of you after the fact is accurate or true doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is that they BELIEVE you are not to be trifled with. Once they have that nailed into their pointy little head, they WON'T trifle with you.

[kamn]

Another bullied teen reporting in.

I can attest that it has to be swift and decisive. I failed to do that. I was picked on since kidnergarden, and was told repeatedly, to ignore it all. Which I tried. Which lead to them being more confident in doing it. The actual verbal and physical bullying started around grade 3. I know I told the teachers about it, talked to anyone that would listen. Nothing changed. Got into a bigger fight with the closest thing to a friend I had when he was insulting me. I knocked him down, but didn't wail on him. Went away from him when he was writhing on the ground, classmates came near, got him up. No idea what happened after that, but it only made things worse. It went from picking on me, to looking for fights with me. Im not talking the usual "boys will be boys" fights. I can partly dislocate my shoulder ever since one of those classmates did it to/for me. It got things so bad that I can, without clear recollection of those years, state that there was not a week, after year 3 till year 8, that I wasn't in a fight, one way or another. The average I would say was around 3. There were (very rare) days when I didn't, and there were months when it happened every day. It had become a game to them, and I never noticed it, at least not consciously. I had gotten used to it, in a way. When I entered gymnasium (high school), at year 9, I felt alien, when no one would pick on me. If that wasn't clear: I WAS WORRIED/ALARMED THAT NO ONE WOULD PICK ON ME. And yes, I did try suicide because of them. Getting bullied, getting into fights was what I considered normal. Only, no one would start a fight anymore. Not on a regular basis, anyway. It was more of a class warfare than interclass thing. We disliked all other classes from our year (so, classes 1B,1C,1E,...), they disliked us, and almost no one cared or wanted to start anything with me, and helped me when they were near.

If I ever have kids. Or when my friend have kids. If they ever get picked on, I will tell them exactly one thing: "Punch, kick, claw. Balls, throat, temples. Dont try the nose, or the body, not enough damage there. And when you do it, go ALL the way. If you don't you will only make it worse".

Interesting fact, when I heard about Columbine, the first thing I asked was, if they got bullied. There is only so much anyone can take, and constant abuse is going to turn out only a few ways. Either the inverted way, where the person just shuts into himself, or the extroverted, explosive way, where all that rage and fear is going to come out, through fists, and teeth.

On a last note, I do have to thank the "bullies" I had. If it weren't for them, I would be an asshole. I can see it in my brother, with whom I still share quite a few traits, but he never got the grief I got. He knows what I went through (he was 1 year behind me, and saw some of it), but he was able to make people laugh from early on...

[s_stabeler]

1. I don't agree that being punished by the school is a sign of weakness. If the victim is punished and the bully isn't, it may make the bully feel like he/she is above the system, or invincible, or whatever, but if the victim is punished and the bully isn't, but the victim managed to knock the bully into next week, I am pretty sure the bully won't be too concerned about what, if any, trouble the victim got into.

I think the issue with the victim getting punished and not the bully is more along the lines of the bully believing that it means that they can bully the victim all they want, and the school will prevent any retaliation. Unfortunately, all too often in my experience, it's true.

[Jester]

Interesting fact, when I heard about Columbine, the first thing I asked was, if they got bullied. There is only so much anyone can take, and constant abuse is going to turn out only a few ways. Either the inverted way, where the person just shuts into himself, or the extroverted, explosive way, where all that rage and fear is going to come out, through fists, and teeth.

There is reacting violently and brutally, and there is Columbine. Oddly, when I was heading to work this morning, I felt like I should come in here and comment on Columbine.

Harris and Klebold were bullied. And they reacted, swiftly, violently, and brutally. Exactly the words I have used in describing a good reaction to bullies to deter them from further bullying.

But there was one adverb I left out: appropriately.

It can be debated whether or not my reactions to my tormentors as listed in the OP were or were not appropriate. I think they were. Some would say they were not. But no one can honestly say that what Harris and Klebold did was in any way appropriate. This is not debatable. They went in with explosives and automatic weapons and KILLED PEOPLE. Not just their tormentors, but random, innocent students and teachers.

Now, let's step away from the emotional side of Columbine for a moment. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that Harris and Klebold had gone in and ONLY shot at their tormentors, killing some, injuring others. Would that response have been appropriate?

Hell. Fucking. No.

See, while I understand WANTING to kill one's tormentors, actually doing so would not in any way be right. Sure, I wanted to kill the various douchebags from my original thread. But had it come down to the point where I realized I COULD take their lives, I would have let them go. Why? Because what they did, as horrible as it was, did NOT warrant their forfeiture of their lives. Even with the rage that swept over me each time, I have no doubt that I would have recognized that and released them before I could kill them. Wanting to kill someone and actually killing them are two totally separate things.

Now, some may say I am being hypocritical, as I have said in this very thread and other places that I am perfectly capable of taking a life. Let me make it very plain: I am. And, if someone did something unspeakable to one of my loved ones, makes no mistake: I probably would. Without question, without hesitation, and without remorse. Some would say that makes me a great guy, others would say that makes me no better than the people I would be retaliating against. Frankly, I don't give a shit. I know what I could and would do, and I make no apologies for either.

But this thread is NOT about what we would do to those who hurt our loved ones. It is about the way to stop bullies. And my point here was to say that the way to stop bullies is to punch them square in the nose, figuratively and/or literally.

Technically, yes, killing them would stop them. But the point is to be better people than they are, but still be able to end their reign of terror through the only language they know: brutality and intimidation.

I have no doubt that there are bully victims that look up to Harris and Klebold for what they did in Columbine. To these people, I have a very simple message: you are completely fucked in the head. Harris and Klebold were cowards and pussies. Taking on a tormentor with your hands, bloodying their nose even though you know that there is a good chance they are going to kick your ass--THAT is courageous, that is appropriate, that is heroic. Going in to your school with assault rifles and explosives and killing indiscriminately is the biggest pussy move on the planet. And again, EVEN if they had only targeted their tormentors, I would STILL say they were cowards. Seriously, you got your ass kicked a few times, you got pushed around, you got made fun of, and you feel you need to go in with military weapons and tactics and KILL people? Fuck you. You're a coward and a pussy.

There is simply NO argument against bullying that champions the atrocities of Columbine that holds any water whatsoever.

I am a fan of bully victims retaliating against their tormentors swifly, violently, and brutally. Absolutely I am. But LETHALLY? Are you out of your mind?

So again I say, in addition to "swiftly, violently, and brutally," you have to add "appropriately."

Otherwise you are not only no better than your tormentors, you are far, FAR fucking worse.

I think the issue with the victim getting punished and not the bully is more along the lines of the bully believing that it means that they can bully the victim all they want, and the school will prevent any retaliation. Unfortunately, all too often in my experience, it's true.

In my opinion, this is true ONLY IF the bullied victim is punished for retaliation and the bully is not AND the retaliation by the victim is NOT swift, violent, and brutal. If the victim retaliates and only does some damage, but not enough to really deter the bully, and they are punished for it, sure, the bully is going to feel entitled. But--and this is a very important but--IF the retaliation is brutal enough, the bully really is not going to give a flying rat shit about any punishment the victim does or doesn't receive for it...they are just going to go out of their way to avoid receiving that kind of brutality again.

To illustrate:

Example A: Don has been pushing Jimmy around for years. Finally, one day, when Don pushes Jimmy into a locker, Jimmy turns around and swings at Don, bloodying his nose and knocking him over. Jimmy, satisfied that he has stood up to Don, walks away, leaving Don laying on the floor, bloodied and embarassed. Teachers who see this approach Jimmy and take him to the principal's office, where Jimmy is issued a several day suspension for fighting. Result: Victim is punished, bully is ignored. Likely future: Don will seek revenge against Jimmy for the bloody nose and embarassment.

Example B: Will has been pushing Ben around for years. Finally, one day, when Will pushes Ben into a locker, Ben turns around, punches Will in the nuts, and while Will is doubled over in agony, Ben grabs Will by the hair and starts slamming Will's head into the locker repeatedly and violently. After several such slams, but before Ben can seriously injure Will, teachers who have been alerted to the incident swoop in and hustle Ben off to the principal's office, where Jimmy is issued a several day suspension for fighting. Result: Victim is punished, bully is ignored. Likely future: Will, while embarrassed by the incident, will still avoid Ben like the plague, and find someone else to pick on, as his memory of the incident is just too traumatic for him to fuck with Ben again.

[Andara Bledin]

Harris was most likely a sociopath, and I sincerely doubt that bullying really had much, if anything, to do with what he did. The entire Columbine incident is very, very similar to another incident where a pair of intelligent young men chose to do something horrific merely because they could; the ringleader was a charismatic sociopath, and the other was a victim but for his status as the sociopath's pet.

^-.-^

[Jester]

I have no doubt in my mind that one or both of the Columbine terrorists was a sociopath. And it doesn't matter. As long as people use this as an example of someone retaliating against bullying, I am going to continue to use it as an example of someone retaliating against bullying in a pussy and cowardly way.

When done correctly, retaliation against a bully should accomplish several or all of the following:

1. Dissuade the bully from ever fucking with the victim again.

2. Dissuade other would-be bullies from fucking with the victim.

3. Make the victim feel like they are not, in fact, a victim. In other words, make them feel good for standing up for themselves.

4. Not land the victim in jail or any of those they retaliate against in the morgue.

[Jester]

By the way, lest anyone misunderstand me, I am not saying that thinking about doing something like Columbine is cowardly. Most people have, at one point or another, thought about or imagined doing something ridiculously horrible, be it stabbing a coworker with a spoon, hitting a boss upside the head with a frying pan, or coming up with various creative ways of dispatching that horrible ex that's been driving you crazy, from fire pits to rhino stampedes. I dare say we've all engaged in that in one form or another.

But there is a big difference between daydreaming about going Rambo and actually DOING it.

My point is that thinking about it is not that abnormal, and is not in itself cowardly. But actually going through with the kind of bullshit that Klebold and Harris did at Columbine, that IS the mark of a coward and a pussy.

Just wanted to make that really clear.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Harris was most likely a sociopath, and I sincerely doubt that bullying really had much, if anything, to do with what he did. The entire Columbine incident is very, very similar to another incident where a pair of intelligent young men chose to do something horrific merely because they could; the ringleader was a charismatic sociopath, and the other was a victim but for his status as the sociopath's pet.

^-.-^

Might not be what you're thinking, but this case springs instantly to mind after reading what you posted.

[SkullKing]

"Punch, kick, claw. Balls, throat, temples. Dont try the nose, or the body, not enough damage there. And when you do it, go ALL the way. If you don't you will only make it worse".

trhat is not quite true. It is not too difficult to give someone a nose bleed by hitting the nose, and if you do so, it gets harder for them to breath, and thus they tire faster.

and a gut punch, or knee to the gut, can be pretty damaging. Not to mention that an untrained person can really damage their hands by doing improper head punches, the skull is fairly hard.

[HYHYBT]

Something else worth mentioning: strangling someone, banging their head against a car trunk, or punching the throat can turn fatal quickly.

[Jester]

Something else worth mentioning: strangling someone, banging their head against a car trunk, or punching the throat can turn fatal quickly.

Obviously. Which is why I'm pretty sure those people never fucked with me again.

But I am curious why you mention this. Are you saying that bullying victims should NOT strike back at their tormentors? For myself, I accept what I did and what could have happened in those situations. And I wouldn't change a thing, though I admit that what came out of did scare me somewhat at the time.

I'm not trying to be contentious here, mind you, and please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to get a handle on where you're going with this.

[Jester]

This comment was posted in the CS.com bullying advice thread, and I thought my comments on it would be better off posted here in fratching than there.

Yes. They need to stop the bullying. They really, really do.

I agree that it is about time that they started doing something about bullying, and that efforts to curtail it are long overdue.

However, the thing is, kids can and will be cruel. Not all of them remain cruel, and some of them grow up to be pretty decent folks. Hell, some of us in here were probably at times cruel to some of our classmates ourselves, even if we were getting bullied by others at the time. It is one of the sadder parts of human nature, but it is still human nature. Which is why I believe that part of the onus of ending bullying rests on the victims themselves. They must come to the realization that, in the end, they have to rely on themselves to get out of a bad situation. This is good not only for bullying, but for life itself. We often find ourselves in bad spots, and relying on others or authorities to help us out won't always work. The victims need to stand up to their tormentors. Nothing, in my opinion, will stop a bully in their tracks faster than that.

Now, I admit this is not always possible for all bullying victims. But more often than not, it is. And in those cases, the majority of the cases, no one can have a bigger impact on the situation than the victim themselves. Whether it's by standing up to the bully, or learning better social skills, or whatever, in the end it comes down to a moment of self-realization: how am *I* going to deal with MY problem?

Just my opinion. I reserve the right to be completely wrong. I just don't think I am on this one.

[protege]

I was always told, that if someone's trying to hurt you...that you take their ass out. You don't *kill* them, but you do what you have to, to neutralize the threat.

For example, one of my MGB-owning friends was the victim of an attempted robbery a couple months back. He was making a delivery somewhere downtown late at night, when he was accosted by 3 individuals. Now, my friend isn't exactly a big guy. However, after he knocked out the biggest of the 3...the two others ran off. Apparently, they felt that if he could take out someone bigger than he was...he wasn't someone they wanted to fuck with.

Sometimes though, you don't have to deal with the threat directly. How? Some of you might remember me posting about my then-girlfriend, and how her ex was stalking her. He would attempt to follow her around campus, going so far as watching her through the windows of certain buildings. As if that wasn't enough, we'd be in a store or fast-food joint, and he'd suddenly show up. If I was around, all he did was stare at her. As soon as I left (or went home for the weekend), that's when the phone calls, the messages on her door, etc. went on. We were at her mother's house for a party...and the asshole showed up. Her mom...actually *let* the asshole inside After the party, as we were cleaning up, I could tell she wasn't happy. I said something along the lines of "if he hurts you, or I find out that he's hurting you...I'll kill him." As I said the last 3 words, I took the knife I was holding, and jammed it into the counter. Immediately after, the asshole ran out of the house, taking out a (locked) screen door in the process. Not quite the reaction I expected, but it did the job. He left us alone after that.

I'm not a big guy either, but I guess he was a bit scared of me. I didn't raise my voice at all when I said what I did. I was pretty calm and collected. Sometimes you can scare the shit out of people that way. They're not exactly sure what do expect--are you going to beat the shit out of them right away...or will it happen when they're not expecting it? Yeah, I know I could have gotten into trouble over that. But, at the time, I thought it was worth it. Plus, he had a criminal record for stalking, and a PFA was later taken out against his ass. With that said, who do you think the police would have believed?

Bullies only understand one thing--force. Sooner or later, they'll piss off the wrong person. And yes, it's hilarious to watch.

Such was the case when a bully I knew in high school...decided to call someone the N-word outside a local mall. Said bully got the shit beat out of him...by someone much smaller. That asshole ended up not only getting knocked down, but a broken nose, and a couple of ribs as well. Seems that once down, the victim chose to kick him in the face and chest...to send a message. Never had a problem with him again after that. Can't understand why

[HYHYBT]

I'm not trying to be contentious here, mind you, and please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to get a handle on where you're going with this.

Well, it's a vague sort of thing... I mentioned it partly because, after telling these stories, you said you couldn't have killed anyone back then, but the actions you took could have been fatal. So I trust you meant that you couldn't have done it deliberately... but following that with (and I don't remember who said it) the part about teaching kids to fight back by punching in the throat and going for the temples seems to me a very bad idea in general. They should learn to save that for when they believe their life to be in imminent danger, both because of the chance of killing the other person and the chance of immediate retaliation in kind if they don't at least incapacitate on the first try. A week's suspension is one thing; prison (and likely a troubled conscience) another.