Bullying, and how I dealt with it...

[Lace Neil Singer]

The problem is, you don't always think about consequences when you're delivering a smackdown to a bully. As I said in my post, when I first started fighting back, I'd basically snapped and just hit the bully without thinking. I just wanted to hurt her as much as she'd hurt me, and I didn't think on what my actions would lead to.

She ended up taking a couple of days off, apparently, and was bruised all over when she came back to school. By the time I returned from my suspension, she was pretty much recovered; however, she avoided me after her beating. Some of her friends tried to get revenge on me for that, but I kicked their arses too, tho not as badly as the beating I meted out at first, cuz when I fought those other bullies, I was thinking clearly and dealt out just enough to show them not to fuck with me again.

I agree with Jester; being beaten to a pulp is the only thing that will stop a bully in their tracks. The school isn't going to do anything about it; my school "punished" the bullies with detentions at first, then after that I stopped telling on the bullies cuz it wasn't stopping them; they just added "telltale" and "grass" to their list of insults to me. All the time I was trying to ignore them, and walking away, I was unknowingly fueling their belief that I was scared of them. However, beating them up turned the tables, and they became scared of me, and left me alone. So I'd say to any victim that retaliating with violence is sometimes the only way to stop bullies, unless you happen to go to a magically wonderful school that actually kicks the bullies to the kerb.

[Seshat]

I'm still terrified of fighting. But not because I'm afraid of being hurt. I'm afraid of losing control and hurting someone else... because I most definitely understand my body far better than I did then, and I honestly think that if I go berserk again, I'm going to put whoever I'm fighting against in the hospital, or worse.

What I'm about to recommend is going to sound ironic at first.

Take combat lessons.

Take them from a pragmatic pacifist combat instructor*, or if you can, from a retired training sargeant from the armed forces or the police. (One who left on good terms.)
* Someone who knows that sometimes a fight is inevitable, and aims for the minimal-damage form of response.

You're looking for an instructor who will help you learn what your body is capable of; and who will help you learn how to disable without killing or permanently crippling the opponent.
Be aware that if your opponent is on certain drugs (and yes, alcohol IS one of them), you may not be able to stop them from harming yourself/others without moves that risk permanent damage. However, a GOOD instructor will be able to teach you how to minimise that risk.
And honestly? Better that you blow the kneecap of the drunk, than that the drunk kill an innocent bystander.
(Knee repair surgery is improving all the time, anyway.)

Anyway: I think that's the only way you're going to get over being frightened of your own abilities. Learn them, and learn how to use them only if and when needed, and only as much as needed.

But, now the flip side. While I was never really bullied, I have another angle on this: My best friend was a bully once. Or rather, became one over the years and it eventually ended our friendship. In retrospec I'm somewhat ashamed at how little I was able to curb his behaviour through out my school years. Yeah, I could often talk him down and stop him from going totally apeshit on someone. But he was a straight up psychopath to be honest.

He wasn't always like that either. I knew him since about grade 4ish or so. Use to be a decent kid, grade A student. Wasn't till we hit high school that he started to sour and it was a slow burn that crept up on us. I'm guessing because of his dad. His dad was a real bastard and the sort of guy that was just always pissed off/angry over something. Also a real hardcore control freak when it came to his kids. Both in life and their academics. His mom was just a submissive lump that did whatever his dad said and took all his verbal abuse.

I couldn't handle him well anymore and he started going apeshit even on me. Was really hard to talk him down ( Once he was in hurt mode, he wasn't satisfied till someone was hurt. )

Gravekeeper:
You're describing someone who desperately needed professional, fully trained adult intervention. Entire-family therapy, or removal from his toxic family and sustained therapy to enable him to recover from the damage to his psyche.

Please, please don't beat yourself up because you-as-a-child couldn't do a job that is extremely difficult for fully trained adults.

Okay?

[Jester]

I didn't raise my voice at all when I said what I did. I was pretty calm and collected. Sometimes you can scare the shit out of people that way.

This is true. And I have experienced it. And every time I have, I credit my experience with reacting to bullies when I was younger. I have two stories worth telling, both of which I think I've told in CS.com, but both of which I'll repeat here.

Story 1: I was hanging out at the roof top clothing optional bar, as I've been known to do (though both me and the antagonist of the story were clothed), and just enjoying my night. Well, I tend to be a smartass (shocking!), and apparently I must have said something this one dude didn't like.

Now, the dude in question was a big old fat fuck, probably mid to late forties, outweighed me by at least a hundred pounds, none of it muscle, but still big enough to cause MY small ass damage. Well, as I said, I apparently said something to piss him off. I was sitting on a bar stool at the bar, looking out at the dance floor, and he was standing right in front of me....

HIM: (glaring down at me "I'm gonna kick your ass."
ME: (looking up at him nonchalantly) "I hope you brought friends."
HIM: (clearly not expecting that particular response) "What do you mean?"
ME: "Well, I'm really popular in this town, and you don't know a soul. More importantly, I am too lazy and too damn comfortable to get up and walk down two flights of stairs just for the privilege of having my ass kicked by you. So why don't you shut up, chill out, and enjoy your fucking beer."

At this point, I should have gotten knocked out. But the guy stopped, thought about what I had said....and he shut up, chilled the fuck out, and enjoyed his fucking beer. Clearly I got away with one there.

Story 2: I was hanging out in a bar with two attractive female friends, May and D-Rod. We had just met Sleazy Mike. Now, within five minutes of Sleazy Mike telling us that he was married and had a wife up in Orlando that was expecting their first child, Sleazy Mike is rubbing up on and hitting on both May and D-Rod. Now, like myself, May had no problem confronting people, and she asked Sleazy Mike, "Don't you have a child on the way?" His response (and justification for his actions): "It's not born yet!" Yeah, Sleazy Mike was a winner. But it was his interaction with D-Rod that set me off.

Set up: May, D-Rod and myself are sitting at the bar, on bar stools, facing away from the bar and into the main part of the establisment. Sleazy Mike is sitting on a normal sized chair talking to us, so his head is pretty much at our waist level. Also, Sleazy Mike was about 25, 6' tall, and about 190 lbs. I am 5'8" and was about 150 lbs at the time.

Now, D-Rod was wearing "holy jeans," the kind of jeans that have holes in the knees, and Sleazy Mike was playing with one of those holes with his hand, much to the utter horror of D-Rod. Unlike May or myself, D-Rod did NOT like confrontation, and was just trying to get away from Sleazy Mike. Problem was, the three of us were backed up against the bar, and there was nowhere to go. But D-Rod was looking over at me with a look of abject horror, and it was clear that she needed some help.

Everything I said to Sleazy Mike was in a casual, quiet, conversational tone, despite the music blaring loudly in the bar we were at. I never raised my voice, and he never had a problem hearing me.

ME: (leaning over)"Mike, come here."
SLEAZY MIKE: (leaning in to hear me)"Yeah?"
ME: "If you don't stop that, you're gonna lose your hand."
SLEAZY MIKE: "What?"
ME: "If you don't stop playing with the holes in her jeans, you're gonna lose your hand."
SLEAZY MIKE: (puffing up in his chair) "What, you're gonna kick my ass?"
ME: (still calm, quiet, and conversational) "No. I'm just gonna take your hand off your fucking arm."
SLEAZY MIKE: (blink) (blink) (blink)

After which, he got up and, without a word, left the bar.

Such was the case when a bully I knew in high school...decided to call someone the N-word outside a local mall. Said bully got the shit beat out of him...by someone much smaller.

Shocking how much you can get your ass beat by being a dumbass and using words you know you should not use.

[Jester]

Well, it's a vague sort of thing... I mentioned it partly because, after telling these stories, you said you couldn't have killed anyone back then, but the actions you took could have been fatal. So I trust you meant that you couldn't have done it deliberately... but following that with (and I don't remember who said it) the part about teaching kids to fight back by punching in the throat and going for the temples seems to me a very bad idea in general. They should learn to save that for when they believe their life to be in imminent danger, both because of the chance of killing the other person and the chance of immediate retaliation in kind if they don't at least incapacitate on the first try. A week's suspension is one thing; prison (and likely a troubled conscience) another.

I agree that victims should not kill or do permanent maiming damage to their bullying tormentors. However, I don't know how you explain to them how to draw the line, since it is clear that the only language the bullies understand is violence and brutality.

I don't know if I said that I was incapable of taking a life back then. I think I was. I think, however, that I didn't KNOW that I was. I know now that I am, without question, fully capable of taking a life. Would I intentionally do so to someone fucking with me? No. Would I do so to someone intentionally trying to cause damage, problems, or issues for my niece(s)? Without question and without remorse, yes. I would. And I don't have a problem admitting it. If you fuck with Dragon, Princess, Bear, Bug, or SN, do not expect me to show mercy. Because, to be brutally honest, I won't. You fuck with any of those girls, you are asking me to open the garage door and unleasn the full weed-whacker. And...I will.

The problem is, you don't always think about consequences when you're delivering a smackdown to a bully.

No, you don't always think about it. I know I didn't. In all three cases, I just reacted. Could I have killed them? Probably. Would I have? Not intentionally....but then, I don't think that I would have been honestly all that upset if I had. Yes, the punishment would have sucked, of course, but would I have been upset by the actual fact that I ended these idiots' lives?

No. Not all that much. If I'm going to be honest, anyway.

I agree with Jester; being beaten to a pulp is the only thing that will stop a bully in their tracks.

To be completely fair, that is NOT what I said. What a DID say was that in many, perhaps even most cases, the best thing to do is to strike back against the bully swiftly, brutally, and violently. You don't have to beat them to a pulp, but administering a complete and unquestioned beatdown is effective in ending their reign of terror. You don't have to beat them to a pulp--you just have to beat them down enough to make sure they understand that fucking with you is a bad, BAD idea.

Take combat lessons.

Combat lessons and/or martial arts are good. My parents tried to do that for me, enrolling me in a karate class. And....I blew it off. I didn't bother. Would it have helped me? Probably. Did I care? Not really. And I don't think it woudl have made much of a difference in the end result, to be perfectly honest. I would have reacted the way I did with or without karate lessons.

That being said, do I think that combat and/or martial arts lessons are a bad idea? Absolutely not. They were a bad idea for me. Because I was (and am) lazy and a procrastinator. That doesn't mean they would be a bad idea for everyone. Many bullying victims, especially those that take a lot of physical bullying, woudl absolutely benefit from this type of training, as long as they are willing to apply it when the time comes.

[Seifer]

Something I've noticed is that some bullies (not all, but some), only pick on those who they think (or know) won't fight back. The moment the victim stands up and puts on a threatening presence, the bully will back down and try to steer clear.

A lot of bullies are simply cowards. If they think they're going to get their ass kicked, they will run away with their proverbial tails between their legs.

I've never been so enraged that I was prepared to have a knock-down, drag-out fight, but that's probably because by high school, I was generally left alone. Middle school was bad, but I wasn't physically abused, just threatened.

[Jester]

A lot of bullies are simply cowards.

I respectfully disagree with you. I dare say that most bullies, perhaps even all of them, are cowards. Because it's not about being bigger and stronger than those they are pushing around. There were plenty of kids in school that were bigger and stronger than me. The ones who were comfortable with themselves generally didn't push around others, and some of them even championed the little guy. The bullies, on the other hand, got their kicks pushing people around, because they probably felt that the only way to feel superior was to act superior, in some way compensating (or trying to) for some inadequacy in themselves.

Now, not all bullies would turn tail and run when faced with someone who would actually fight back. Sometimes, they realized they were still bigger and stronger than their victim, and would just administer a bigger ass-whupping. Which is why I think that the retaliation needs to not just be about standing up to the bully, but about putting them on their ass with prejudice. I hate to repeat myself, but it needs to be swift, and it needs to be brutal. That is the only way to level the playing field that is generally stacked in the bully's favor.

At least, that's my opinion.

[Seshat]

Combat lessons and/or martial arts are good. My parents tried to do that for me, enrolling me in a karate class. And....I blew it off. I didn't bother. Would it have helped me? Probably. Did I care? Not really. And I don't think it woudl have made much of a difference in the end result, to be perfectly honest. I would have reacted the way I did with or without karate lessons.

Combat lessons for a child may or may not help.

However, Nekojin mentioned that he is still afraid of what he may be capable of, if pushed to the point of violent response. As an adult, with an adult's mental maturity and stick-to-it-ive-ness, and with the motivation of training himself to be able to respond with appropriate violence and no more .... I think combat lessons will be good for him.
But he'll need the right instructor. One who understands that goal, and is willing to help him develop his control over his body until it does exactly and only what he asks it to do.

Even better is a combat instructor who is primarily a safety instructor - the sort who can teach Nekojin (or whomever) how to identify a real threat from the appearance of threat.


Children ... often don't have the body control, much less the ability to discern threat levels. And if they're growing fast, whatever body control they develop can be lost in the next growth spurt.

I don't DISagree with combat training for children! I think anything which improves the development of both gross and fine motor coordination with only a reasonable amount of risk to life and limb is good. Supervised combat training, gymnastics, dance, contact sports, jungle gyms, 'circus sports' - whatever. I just think that what Nekojin can get from it is different from what a seven year old could.

[Nekojin]

Combat lessons for a child may or may not help.

However, Nekojin mentioned that he is still afraid of what he may be capable of, if pushed to the point of violent response. As an adult, with an adult's mental maturity and stick-to-it-ive-ness, and with the motivation of training himself to be able to respond with appropriate violence and no more .... I think combat lessons will be good for him.
But he'll need the right instructor. One who understands that goal, and is willing to help him develop his control over his body until it does exactly and only what he asks it to do.

Even better is a combat instructor who is primarily a safety instructor - the sort who can teach Nekojin (or whomever) how to identify a real threat from the appearance of threat.


Children ... often don't have the body control, much less the ability to discern threat levels. And if they're growing fast, whatever body control they develop can be lost in the next growth spurt.

I don't DISagree with combat training for children! I think anything which improves the development of both gross and fine motor coordination with only a reasonable amount of risk to life and limb is good. Supervised combat training, gymnastics, dance, contact sports, jungle gyms, 'circus sports' - whatever. I just think that what Nekojin can get from it is different from what a seven year old could.

While I agree with you for the most part, I'm completely capable of controlling how much force I project... as long as I'm completely in control. One of the incidents I mentioned from high school, I literally went berserk - I had no conscious control, and I have no memory of that time. I have a fairly cold, calm approach to things, and more than 99% of the time, I can keep it from getting to the point of a violent response. Even when it gets there, I have (so far) been able to keep myself under control since adulthood; it's possible that the one berserker incident was all that I'll ever experience. I've been in all of three potentially violent incidents since I turned 18, and two of them were defused by walking away. The third... well, he swung first, knocked me down... and then I got up and applied a choke-hold until he agreed that he was done fighting.

I don't want to lose control. And I'm a much calmer person than I was at 17 (the berserk fight), so I don't think that I'm likely to be in a position where I MIGHT lose control again. But the possibility does still haunt me.

[Mishi]

One of my bullies sexually harassed me for 3 years. I did all of the 'right' things; I tried to involve adults, I attended mediation, I ignored him, I stayed as far away as possible, and so on. None of which worked, and some of it actually encouraged him. I stopped doing the 'right' things and felt much better. It got to the point that I kicked him down a full flight of concrete stairs after he groped me. He sat there and laughed. Standing up to him didn't stop him for very long, but it did make me feel better. He eventually left me alone after an incident was witnessed by a few of my male friends (I didn't complain to any of my friends because he was sneaky and I didn't think they could do anything about it), who then proceeded to kick his arse most thoroughly one morning before school.

Of course, I copped the blame for organising it even though I didn't know anything about it until a teacher grabbed my arm and dragged me in to see the principal.

Good things came out of this though. I have fast reflexes, I'm ambidextrous, and like Jester, I can intimidate people with a smile and a calm tone. Though I do use a chirpy, happy one for the extra creep factor when required.

[Jester]

Combat lessons for a child may or may not help.

I don't DISagree with combat training for children! I think anything which improves the development of both gross and fine motor coordination with only a reasonable amount of risk to life and limb is good.

It is beyond just those things. Martial arts teach body control, of course, but they also teach self-defense, which can be very good for someone who is being physically bullied. But beyond either of those things, it can teach one thing that bully victims probably need and benefit from the most: self-confidence. Bullying victims often are lacking in self-confidence, and once they gain it, they may not even need their martial arts training to deal with their tormentors. Just a thought.

[Mytical]

My experience with bullying is a bit..odd. Much like myself (odd that is). When I in Elementary school (kindergarten through 4th grade)..I was .. small. Really really small. I was also pure evil given form. Just ask my hand writing teacher who wouldn't teach me to wright with my natural hand (left) and forced me to learn right handed because "Left handed children are the spawn of Satan." I proved her right many, many times. To the point where I was in Kindergarten giving beat downs to 5th graders because they picked on my OLDER brother. I was over compensating for my size issues.

Other things happened (A REALLY REALLY LONG STORY) and by the time I reached 5th grade..I was .. zen. I had grown, to be even bigger then my older brother, but not quite yet the 'Gentle Giant'. Luckily my "OMG HE IS INSANE" reputation kept anybody from physically picking on me, just not the mental abuse. Anyhow, things went smoothly (sort of) until I was 13. Then a few of the people I had embarrassed when young decided to even the odds..three of them..they were about 16 or so.

Only the fight didn't quite go as they, or even I imagined. I fully expected to get my head handed to me. Instead, I blacked out (the first time..but not the last), and when I came to...lets just say I was the one who had somehow won. My reputation sort of got cemented then..when I walked down a hall, people moved out of my way. Even though I was a teddy bear (most of the time) and wouldn't hurt a fly on purpose.

By high school..I was getting big. There were bigger in the school, but they were few and far between. Problem was, people figured out that I prefer not to fight back now. So the bullying started to get serious. They learned exactly how far they could push me until I broke (and somebody got hurt) and they kept it exactly to the point just before that. Only one or two slipped up, but since they knew it would rarely happen, that didn't stop them.

I can honestly say, I've never ever lost a fight I was in. The person I was fighting always got the worst end of it. Because when it came to that point, I didn't care what happened to me, only that THEY would go down.