War On Drugs Is STUPID!!!

[Gravekeeper]

Do you have any sources to back that up? Specifically on the difference between 18 and 21?

The brain does not fully mature until the age of 25 and an immature brain is especially susceptable to harmful side effects.

Basically, its a bad idea to pickle your braincase till its finished growing properly. ;p

[Canarr]

Basically, its a bad idea to pickle your braincase till its finished growing properly. ;p

Mhmmm.... pickled brains...

Okay, consuming large amounts of alcohol over a period of time is bad. The larger the amounts, and the longer the period, the worse it is. That's not exactly rocket science. If that were the argument, then any age under 25 would be too early to drink. Personally, I think that not demonizing the occasional, responsible alcohol consumption, and giving parents the option of running their own "alcohol education" for their kids, would be better in the long run.

As for the claim that lower drinking age results in worse problems, I did a quick Google-comparison between the US and Germany, where I found this:

http://www.centurycouncil.org/undera...nking/research

According to the 2010 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, about 10.0 million Americans between ages 12-20 report current alcohol consumption; this represents about 26% of this age group for whom alcohol use is illegal. Among 12-20 year olds, reported rates of past month consumption, binge drinking and heavy alcohol all declined between 2002 and 2010.

As to Germany:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/gesel...-a-743574.html

2010 tranken deutlich weniger der 12- bis 17-Jährigen regelmäßig alkoholische Getränke als in den Vorjahren. Während 2004 noch etwa jeder Fünfte (21,2 Prozent) in dieser Altersgruppe angegeben hatte, mindestens einmal in der Woche Alkohol zu trinken, lag dieser Anteil im vergangenen Jahr bei 12,9 Prozent.

In 2010, 12.9% of kids between 12 and 17 reported regular consumption of alcohol, down from 21.2% in 2004. Half the rate in the US, although a direct comparison might be flawed due to the fact that the US figures show the ages of 12-20.

Still, that doesn't show me that Germany has a worse problem with underage drinking than the US. Quite the contrary.

[Rageaholic]

We actually discussed this in one of my college courses. The War on Drugs has gotten so big that trying to end it will cost thousands of people their jobs and end a HUGE revenue stream for state and federal governments. They'd have to slowly change the laws to become more tolerant of (safe) drug use - i.e., drug use that doesn't affect anyone but the user. (It's the same as the laws that say you can't drive while under the influence of alcohol. Alcohol itself is legal, but you can only consume it under certain circumstances.)

So people base their income on locking people up.

Fuck you very much Ronald Reagan.

That's where the problem with the US system lays. Possession and traffiking charges. An arbitratory limit on how much you can have on you before you're upgraded from dopehead to drug pusher and get locked up for 20 years.

Up here, getting caught with a small amount is a fine and many cops find it rather annoying to have to deal with just writing up people for being stupid. But in the US, the justice system is very much PUNISH. EVERYONE. So cops seem to go out of their way to nail you as hard and as often as possible.

Here in BC, beat cops will walk right through a cloud of marijuana smoke, shrug and keep on walking. They don't care unless you have a grow op. -

That sounds a lot more sensible than the punitive bullshit we have in the states. What people here need to realize is that not everything needs to be met with punishment. I try to discuss this with people IRL and they act like I'm advocating drug use. All I'm really saying is that cops don't need to get involved for every hint of drug abuse. I thought we were a free country.

What law specifically? I'm hoping you're not calling drinking age minimum's "stupid protect the children" laws. -.-

The part where they lock you up and fine you if you're underage drinking. Also the parts where the cops go out of their way to harass you if they suspect drinking (or drug use).

[AdminAssistant]

We need to change the punishment, not eliminate it completely. I am not a huge advocate of legalizing marijuana, but I think the punishment needs to be relaxed. (The 'regulate and tax' argument holds no water with me, since there's already a HUGE black market for the stuff.) Instead of jail time, use fines and community service. With repeat offenders, drug counseling or even rehab. That goes for alcohol issues as well. Make a Minor in Possession sit in on a few MADD or AA meetings. Hang out with some actual alcoholics and see how much fun boozing it up is then. And for the love of Pete, make repeat DUI offenders go to rehab. Inhouse rehab, not outpatient.

[Andara Bledin]

The 'regulate and tax' argument holds no water with me, since there's already a HUGE black market for the stuff.

I'm wondering how the 'regulate and tax' argument and the black market are even related.

Actually, since the black market funds criminal activity, that's another reason to legalize and regulate; a full ban only stops the casual users, stigmatizes the addicts which is an obstacle to getting treatment, and provides a massive economic base for organized (and not so organized) crime.

^-.-^

[crashhelmet]

One thing to remember about drinking laws here in the USA is that this is "Muricuh! FUCK YEAH! WOOOOO!!" Our society glamorizes alcohol consumption far too much that if we were to reduce the drinking age to 18 or younger, it could potentially cause a huge upswing in teen drinking with unfortunate results.

We can't/don't educate our youth properly enough about safe sex, driving, and other drugs as it is. Giving them legal access to alcohol at a younger age would be a bad idea.

[Zod]

[I]According to the 2010 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, about 10.0 million Americans between ages 12-20 report current alcohol consumption; this represents about 26% of this age group for whom alcohol use is illegal. .

And that's only the ones who admit to it. I don't know how they get their figures, but if a stranger askes me if I've broken any laws recently, I'm probably not going to say "yes".

[LewisLegion]

I'm wondering how the 'regulate and tax' argument and the black market are even related.

Actually, since the black market funds criminal activity, that's another reason to legalize and regulate; a full ban only stops the casual users, stigmatizes the addicts which is an obstacle to getting treatment, and provides a massive economic base for organized (and not so organized) crime.

^-.-^

I agree. The problem is very much that there is a huge black market that needs to go away. Right now, to buy MJ on the streets, you're more often than not putting money into the pockets of black market traffickers and gangs, and what you get may in fact be laced with some very dangerous substances or harder drugs.

If you make it legal, tax and regulate it...suddenly the black market gets its wind taken out. Where would you rather buy your MJ if you're going to smoke...from some shady guy on a street corner that might swindle you or lace it, or from a grocery or liquor store where its had to meet safety and productoin standards and where the money goes into schools, medical programs, and road repair?

To say the shady guy is like saying you'd rather buy a bottle of booze from a moonshiner standing on some random corner than just go to the store and buy a bottle there from a reputable company.

As for all the jobs disappearing, NEW jobs would open up. Cops could actually focus on hard and serious crime, the jails would not be so overcrowded, money going into schools could fund more teachers and better training, you've got new companies opening up to sell products not only MJ but also hemp related, you've got a new regulatory department opening up or forming to inspect and enforce quality law, you have small business owners striking up smoke shops, cafes, or bakeries...the list goes on.

Right now, we spend millions of dollars while gangs and black market sellers get millions of dollars poured into their pockets. We need to stop spending the money on a lost war and get those millions of blackmarket dollars pouring in to the state and the community, not into the pockets of thugs.

[Gravekeeper]

Personally, I think that not demonizing the occasional, responsible alcohol consumption, and giving parents the option of running their own "alcohol education" for their kids, would be better in the long run.

The inherent problem is you're asking responsibility of a group that literally has not yet fully developed the ability to be responsible. My step-brother did exactly what you're saying with my nephew when he turned 16. Taught him responsible drinking, let him drink beer at home. He spent the next 2 years as a complete binge drinker and near ruined his schoolwork entirely. Didn't get his shit together till he was 19 and life was kicking in the balls too hard because of it.

Why? Because typically the teenage reaction to discovering some new endorphin inducing activity is "I want to do this as much as is possible". Not "I should do this periodically and responsibly, so it doesn't affect my life'. -.-

Many adults cannot handle the responsibility of alcohol. Asking it of teenagers, who have not yet even developed the full capability to be responsible, just seems like a bad idea considering the risks involved with underage consumption. Regardless of whether or not there's a couple countries on the planet that allow it without having a boozpocolypse.

As for the claim that lower drinking age results in worse problems, I did a quick Google-comparison between the US and Germany, where I found this:

There's no reason given for the decline though. The reason could very well be the punitive measures being taken by the police. Or it could be the availability of a better source of farking yourself up ( drugs ). Or it could be a decline in the availability of the alcohol itself due to stricter enforcement. It could be an increase in education or stricter school programs regarding it.

As for Germany, its one of only a handful of countries in the world with a drinking age below 18. However, the devil is in the details. The drinking age is 16 only for beer and public consumption by minors is likewise against the law. German law also places the responsibility almost exclusively on adults. For example, if you witness underage drinking and do not interfere to stop it, you're criminally responsible for the underage drinking you witnessed.

Its worth noting however that Germany's approach to underage drinking is to educate, not punish, and to keep the hard stuff out of the hands of minors. Which may be the reason why they can maintain a lower drinking age and have a declining rate of underage drinking. Other European countries have not been so fortunate.

Interestingly, there seems to be a bigger difference with underage binge drinking rates when comparing 18 vs 21 rather than between 16 vs 18. Most of Europe has a drinking age of 18, and some severe underage binge drinking problems. While in the US, raising the limit from 18 to 21 had a significant impact for the states in question.

Food for thought.

[Nyoibo]

Um, no. Countries with lower drinking ages have worse problems with underage drinking and underage binge drinking.

Can I get some references or such for this, I know anecdotal and personal examples don't equate to truth, but it hasn't been my experience.

[Gravekeeper]

Can I get some references or such for this, I know anecdotal and personal examples don't equate to truth, but it hasn't been my experience.

Well, there's giant pdf versions if you want the exact rates. The US Dept of Justice has a comparison. For recent events,Britain holds the current dubious record.

To summarize the reports though:

"If the early socialization to drinking that is assumed to be typical of Europe is such that it fosters responsible drinking, then we would expect to see much lower rates of binge drinking there than in the United States. Contrary to these expectations, U.S. adolescents show lower prevalence rates for drinking five or more drinks in a row than most European countries in the ESPAD survey."

"About half of the European countries in the survey had higher prevalence rates for self-reported intoxication than the United States, about a quarter had lower rates, and about a quarter had rates that were more or less the same as the United States."

[BlaqueKatt]

"About half of the European countries in the survey had higher prevalence rates for self-reported intoxication than the United States, about a quarter had lower rates, and about a quarter had rates that were more or less the same as the United States."

yup research based on self reporting is always trustworthy....

[Aethian]

I was watching a program once where they were talking to professional mj growers. The plants were kept in a locked green house that had armed guards and the gardeners had to put on white suits as to not have anything come in or go out that may affect the crop. In as little as I've seen the plants, these were very healthy plants.

When it came time to harvest the guards numbers went up and so did another set of employees, scientists. They were there to extract the chemical and make sure all of the potency was the same. Sure year to year might be off a bit but not by that much. So then it was actual scientists that were putting together mj cigarettes and it was food scientists putting together baked goods.

The people who own the operation have to follow very strict guidelines and their accounting must be spot on, they face shut down almost everyday.

Before you can buy anything from them, not only must you have a medical card but you must also fail a drug test. If you don't fail they won't sell to you because they don't want to be the third party supplier.

[Gravekeeper]

yup research based on self reporting is always trustworthy....

Yes, well, they're not allowed to legally bag teenagers, fit them with tracking collars and re-release them back into the wild. So what else would you suggest exactly?

Seriously, lets hear it. Its impossible to make comparisons based on legal data because the laws are completely different. So what would you suggest? Following them around? Staking out their houses? Random door to door breathalyzer tests? ;p

[bara]

So what would you suggest? Following them around? Staking out their houses? Random door to door breathalyzer tests? ;p

Damnit man, I live in the USA! Stop giving them ideas!