Amazon blacklists customer, deletes all her Kindle content and won't tell her why

[Rapscallion]

http://www.amazon.ca/ oddly enough.

Oh, and I'm pretty certain there are .de (Germany), .fr and so forth versions for the various countries in Yurp.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

I bought a CD from amazon.fr a number of years ago.

[Andara Bledin]

It's worth noting that the purchase of physical media is very different than the purchase of virtual media as regards the legality of such.

I don't actually agree with the vast majority of copyright laws as they stand right now, but they are the current law.

As for why Amazon won't comment, it's possible that there is some legal wrangling going on behind the scenes and they aren't allowed to comment on why they did what they did beyond what they've already said.

Personally, as this is a "he said/she said" situation, I'm not taking sides. Way too many people immediately jump to the defense of the "little people" and as often as not, the little people are lying liars who are upset that they got caught.

^-.-^

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Probably not legally enforceable (at least, in the US). That's a huge surrendering of legal power, and they're not giving you anything back in exchange for giving up those rights.

Just because it's in a EULA, that doesn't automagically make it valid.

Actually in a lot of cases it is.

Mandatory Binding Arbitration clauses are used by a lot of big companies. They can do this legally (a court decision last year re-affirmed their right do so).

While some companies do allow you to opt-out of these clauses via a written statement of intent, they are not obligated to do so.

It doesn't seem like this should be legal, but it is.

And for those who aren't aware, the reason companies love this approach is because they are the ones who HIRE the arbitrators, hence the arbitrators have nothing to gain and everything to lose by ruling against the company.

Think about it, would you rule against the company knowing it could cost you millions of dollars?

I saw a study awhile back of cases in California where something like 1936 of 2000 arbitration cases were decided in favor of the company. That's 97 per cent.

[s_stabeler]

In this case, it's at least 2/3 Amazon's fault for people making that jump. They refused to give any answer, rather than explaining about not being allowed to use .com in the UK.

Meanwhile, I have a CD that I bought from the UK Amazon because it wasn't available in the US. They didn't seem to have any problem with it, and just added the appropriate shipping to get it across the ocean. Amazing that digital copies can be so much more trouble than physical ones.

There's two reasons why physical media is different. One, with physical media, all the appropiate taxes ( VAT and any import taxes) are paid at the border; if you check your invoice, it'll be for a higher amount than the cost on the website to cover said taxes. With digital versions, the taxes don't get paid.
Two, publishers can set any condition they like on licenses. Most licenses are limited to certain countries. Essentially, the publusher won't let Amazon sell it in the UK. ( As for why physical media doesn't have the same problem, it boils down to the fact that Amazon don't make the discs themselves; when a digital book downloads to a kindle, however, Amazon makes the copy. It means a different license is involved. Sure, it sucks, but until copyright licenses are reformed by the publishers, it's the way it is.

As for the woman, There is only one thing I would suggest. Amazon probably should have refunded the woman's money for the books. If she broke the terms of service, though, she knew she was risking it.

[Rapscallion]

As for the woman, There is only one thing I would suggest. Amazon probably should have refunded the woman's money for the books. If she broke the terms of service, though, she knew she was risking it.

Can she prove she hasn't already read them?

I'm not on either side of the case here right now, as I've got some catching up to do, but I would imagine that this would be an important concept here. If she's read them, I imagine a refund for even a portion would be awkward to work out.

Rapscallion

[s_stabeler]

Possibly, actually. Kindles synchronize the last page read. That can be used as a rough guide to estimate how much of the book someone has completed. I don't know how accessible such data is, or even if amazon has it anymore, but if it can be accessed, it could be used to identify books that have already been completed.

[Panacea]

I feel digital content just puts too much power in the hands of the company providing it and can really screw customers needlessly, such as the person discussed above.

It does. And it's the way of the future so we'd best get used to it.

I saw yesterday that Apple is not including optical devices (DVD ROM drive aka Superdrives) with its new line of Power Books and iMacs. And you know what? I'm already trying to figure out how much overtime I'm going to have to work to afford a new Power Book (mine is four years old and starting to go bad). I already have to download the operating system. Other software is "moving to the cloud" or directly downloadable anyway. I have tons and tons of CD's and DVD's with outdated software, so why not just get it online and save myself the space? And I can always get myself an external one if I need it.

Actually, I caught something in the new xbox live terms that now states I agree to not take part in any class action lawsuit against them.... fucking serious?

I got the same sort of thing from PayPal recently. I'm sending in the opt out form I was offered; I'm not waiving my constitutional rights even though I hardly ever use PayPal anymore.

What is next, I buy a Dell Pc (ok really reaching since htat not going to happen) Now they piss me off I go to dellsucks.com and then dell decides because I just went to dellsucks which is against terms of use they get to delete all the software I have paid for and been using becasue well they like to make shit up. Personally I think once the file is downloaded and I am authorized to use it they shouldn't be able to stop my use unless it was say a rental which even then is reaching because they will use a loophole of offfer a 10yr rental of the book.

Not saying that can't happen in the future. Having our media online does present certain vulnerabilities because now we don't own a physical copy of our content. But the anonymity of the Internet will help a bit, and there are probably legal issues that would protect users . . . eventually. I don't think you can create a valid TOS that prohibits customers from going to a specific website for a legal purpose. It's already well established contract law that you can't require an illegal act as part of a contract.

Probably not legally enforceable (at least, in the US). That's a huge surrendering of legal power, and they're not giving you anything back in exchange for giving up those rights.

Just because it's in a EULA, that doesn't automagically make it valid.

Think about it, would you rule against the company knowing it could cost you millions of dollars?

I saw a study awhile back of cases in California where something like 1936 of 2000 arbitration cases were decided in favor of the company. That's 97 per cent.

Which is why I loathe forced arbitration. The system needs to be cleaned up to make it fair to the little guy, who has no power at all in the relationship.

[AccountingDrone]

This is why I don't use iTunes. I've watched people fight tooth and nail trying to play their purchased MP3s on other devices or, in some cases, other media players on the same computer.

I've run into similar issues with the "Free Digital Copy" of movies that are sold with some DVDs and BluRays. You have to download a special app to download and monitors/controls your DRM. I can't watch them without an active internet connection for it to verify itself.

Possibly, actually. Kindles synchronize the last page read. That can be used as a rough guide to estimate how much of the book someone has completed. I don't know how accessible such data is, or even if amazon has it anymore, but if it can be accessed, it could be used to identify books that have already been completed.

With itunes, burn your songs to CD when you get them, delete them from your computer, and load in the CD, and import as MP3. Now they are not in the itunes format, and you have a backup CD.

And with kindle, turn off synching. Buy the book and download it on your computer, burn a copy to CD for your backup files, and then hook the kindle up to your computer and move the file onto the kindle. No synch, no erasure. If you do need to synch for a software update, erase your files from the kindle, do the synch and then reload the kindle.

I will fully admit that I have used calibre to remove the DRM and convert file formats from my legally purchased ebooks - I bought mobipocket format from fictionwise, and the books are not available in EPUB at all, and that is what Fictionwise told me to do about converting the files. I have found that converting them to txt and copyediting the books before finally fromatting them in EPUB also makes for a nicer read. [I find that my major publisher books like the entire Falco series and my official ebook Lord of the Rings have so many damned typos that I swear they just had a monkey scan and OCR them straight onto the damned website for us poor purchasers to get.]

[Duelist925]

With itunes, burn your songs to CD when you get them, delete them from your computer, and load in the CD, and import as MP3. Now they are not in the itunes format, and you have a backup CD.

And with kindle, turn off synching. Buy the book and download it on your computer, burn a copy to CD for your backup files, and then hook the kindle up to your computer and move the file onto the kindle. No synch, no erasure. If you do need to synch for a software update, erase your files from the kindle, do the synch and then reload the kindle.

I will fully admit that I have used calibre to remove the DRM and convert file formats from my legally purchased ebooks - I bought mobipocket format from fictionwise, and the books are not available in EPUB at all, and that is what Fictionwise told me to do about converting the files. I have found that converting them to txt and copyediting the books before finally fromatting them in EPUB also makes for a nicer read. [I find that my major publisher books like the entire Falco series and my official ebook Lord of the Rings have so many damned typos that I swear they just had a monkey scan and OCR them straight onto the damned website for us poor purchasers to get.]

Calibre is a godsend for changing file types for different formats. It also automatically backs up any books you stick in it, so its handy for that as well. I heavily recommend it.

This is kinda the reason I don't WANT a more expensive kindle or the like--I just like my cheap little kobo, which lets me store all the fanfics, and books I have digital versions of, and read whenever I want. If I ever do upgrade, I'm definitely keeping my little kobo just in case.

[HYHYBT]

ITunes music files have been unprotected for several years now, other than those bought before the change.

[AccountingDrone]

ITunes music files have been unprotected for several years now, other than those bought before the change.

but if you burn the itunes purchased music, you can change them to mp3 by importing them with mp3 ticked as the end product file format that you save the music as.

[HYHYBT]

but if you burn the itunes purchased music, you can change them to mp3 by importing them with mp3 ticked as the end product file format that you save the music as.

Yes, you can do that. Unless the files are old enough to have copy protection, though, I'm not sure why you'd want to. If you really want them in a different format just because, you can simply import them from within iTunes itself rather than burning them to a disc first.

[Mikkel]

She does say she uses "amazon.com" and not amazon.UK for her kindle purchases, which would involve two separate accounts, and a .com account would require a north american address.



and using the .com and not .UK

Nope. I can't buy a Kindle from Amazon.co.uk. When I tried, I was send to the .com address. They handle international sales, even when it's in Europe.
I'm from Denmark.