Fox News Op-Ed: Women should learn to accept male control

[Panacea]

I agree with this statement but would like to add that a woman who fits the above should not have to sacrifice her femininity to do it.

She doesn't, and many women don't. My problem with this op ed piece is it falls into the same logical fallacies it claims to try and correct.

Women don't have to "surrender" to their femininity. What they have to do is identify what it means to them to BE female, and live accordingly. It will vary from woman to woman.

Ms. Venker also thinks the only model of marriage is the one that existed only on TV screens in the 50s. June Cleaver didn't really exist even when Leave it to Beaver was on the air. Women who had worked and gained a sense of independence as Rosie the Riveter in WWII didn't give up those gains after the war. Instead, they laid the groundwork for the feminist revolution of the 60's.

Women have worked outside of the homes and been primary supporters of families for thousands of years. While men and women do tend to fall into predefined roles, those roles are cultural, not natural. Matriarchal societies have existed throughout human history and continue to exist today.

Ms. Venker posted on Fox News because she's appealing to the audience that is most likely to buy her book. Her op ed is tailored to cater to that audience, and the bias is clear.

See, this is more my feelings on the subject. I don't mind men and women being equals. It's how it should be. But I don't want women losing their femininity or else I might as well start dating dudes.

I know very few women who want to give up that femininity. I know a lot of women who work tough physical jobs (like cops), who put the work clothes away and want to look good on their off hours and be female.

I think the article has a good message pooly written.

I think it has a bad message poorly written, as I explain above.

I'll admit, I want to get defensive whenever a woman describes herself as "tough," "strong," or any other synonym. Why? Well, frankly, it's because I don't like being with people who are controlling, overbearing, pushy, or manipulative. I don't want to be with someone who is constantly picking at how I dress, how/what I eat, how I spent my free time, etc. I also don't want to be with someone who is constantly tearing into me for one petty reason or another. Now, some of you may be ready to come at me and say, "Well, that's not what they mean when they say they're strong!" Honestly, from my experience, it is what they mean. I want to be with someone who is polite, respectful, gentle, and caring.

A woman who is strong or tough does not have to be any of those things. A woman can be strong, tough, not a pushover, and still be feminine. I think you're basing your reaction on stereotypes, which is rather unfair to me as a female.

As a tough, strong woman myself I would not pick at how your dress, eat, or spend your free time UNLESS you are failing to meet promises or responsibilities you freely undertook. If you promised to mow the yard, but spend all your time playing video games while the lawn turns into jungle, I'm going to get upset and I would have every right to be.

I once had a verbal conflict with a police sergeant over a patient who needed to be transported to a locked mental health facility. The patient was psychotic, but non violent. Policy was the police transported the patient. The sergeant didn't want to do it, and wanted to push it off to the next shift, 8 hours away. We didn't have the space to house the patient that long, so I was insistent he send an officer (an on call off duty officer, not someone who needed to be on the streets btw).

I was polite, respectful, but firm. When he finally capitulated and said he'd call the constable on call, his parting words to me were, "You know what? You need to get laid."

It's extremely irritating that the reaction I get for doing my job correctly, and requiring someone else to do his job correctly is a sexist remark.

Consider some of the terms we use to describe strong and weak people. If someone (male or female) is weak, we don't call him a pushover. We call him a "pussy."

If a woman is tough, we call her a bitch, no matter what her actual approach is.

I really hope it didn't come off as though I was suggesting that all, or even most, women are like that.

Unfortunately, that is exactly how it came off.

[guywithashovel]

Well, I really don't see how it could have possibly come across that way, but for what it's worth, I'm sorry that you made the mistake of reading it that way.

Nevertheless, I stand by my initial comments. I take care of my responsibilities in life.

Your interaction with the police sergeant was very unfortunate. He was being an ass. Were you telling that story to imply that I would do something like that?

[Seifer]

Well, I really don't see how it could have possibly come across that way, but for what it's worth, I'm sorry that you made the mistake of reading it that way.

Time to break it all down and bring it on in~

I'll admit, I want to get defensive whenever a woman describes herself as "tough," "strong," or any other synonym. Why? Well, frankly, it's because I don't like being with people who are controlling, overbearing, pushy, or manipulative.

This statement infers that the only way a woman can be strong is if she's a bitch. That isn't a fair statement, because strength and bitchiness are not one in the same.

I don't want to be with someone who is constantly picking at how I dress, how/what I eat, how I spent my free time, etc. I also don't want to be with someone who is constantly tearing into me for one petty reason or another.

Again, what does being a bitch have to do with being strong? It's not the same thing.

Now, some of you may be ready to come at me and say, "Well, that's not what they mean when they say they're strong!" Honestly, from my experience, it is what they mean. I want to be with someone who is polite, respectful, gentle, and caring.

This is where people are getting the impression that you're saying women can't be strong unless they're a bitch. Also, that last sentence infers that women can't be strong while also being polite, respectful, gentle, and caring. That's like saying a man can't be strong unless he's a douchebag - it's completely biased horse-dribble.

Your interaction with the police sergeant was very unfortunate. He was being an ass. Were you telling that story to imply that I would do something like that?

I really doubt that was the point. What I got from the story was that women can be seen as being "bitches" for simply doing their job and not allowing others to walk all over them. Is that fair? No. Does it happen? Yep.

I was polite, respectful, but firm. When he finally capitulated and said he'd call the constable on call, his parting words to me were, "You know what? You need to get laid."

It's extremely irritating that the reaction I get for doing my job correctly, and requiring someone else to do his job correctly is a sexist remark.

Did you report that to the sergeant's superiors? That was an incredibly inappropriate thing to say, especially since you were simply asking him to do his damn job.

[Greenday]

This statement infers that the only way a woman can be strong is if she's a bitch. That isn't a fair statement, because strength and bitchiness are not one in the same.

Again, what does being a bitch have to do with being strong? It's not the same thing.

I know plenty of strong women. They just don't make a big deal out of it. The only women I know who make a huge deal over being strong are generally asses.

[Seifer]

I know plenty of strong women. They just don't make a big deal out of it. The only women I know who make a huge deal over being strong are generally asses.

I agree. The people who feel the need to shout about how strong they are tend to take it overboard.

[Greenday]

I agree. The people who feel the need to shout about how strong they are tend to take it overboard.

It's the same deal as "nice guys". There are guys who are nice and there are nice guys who are big giant wusses, let everyone walk all over them, and complain about how unfair the world is.

[Lace Neil Singer]

This kind of attitude, ie the one in the original article, really gets on my nerves. I see a relationship, whether marriage or just a long term one, as being a partnership. For example, Fiance does do a lot of cooking for me, cuz he enjoys cooking and can cook things that I can't; for example, he does a damn good roast. However, there are some things that I like doing that could be considered male persuits; for example, football discussion. If I want to watch football, support a team and air my opinion, I will and to hell with any guy who thinks that's unfeminine.

On reading the article, I have to wonder what the author thinks is going to happen in a non het couple. Do lesbians have to sit around and wait for men to do all the rough stuff in the house? Will gay men starve to death cuz neither can do the cooking and be thought of as women? This author needs to get a clue.

[AdminAssistant]

I'm sure the author probably also sees non-hetero or non-normative families as not being true "families" because, after all, there's no way children could be born in that situation. This whole thing has me rolling my eyes so hard my neck may snap off.

[Panacea]

Well, I really don't see how it could have possibly come across that way,

Yes, that's the whole problem.

but for what it's worth, I'm sorry that you made the mistake of reading it that way.

It's worth nothing, since you have no insight into what came out of your own mouth. The more you say, the more clear you make it that my initial assessment was correct.

Nevertheless, I stand by my initial comments. I take care of my responsibilities in life.

And I take care of mine. Not because no one else is going to, but because I enjoy my independence and self sufficiency.

Your interaction with the police sergeant was very unfortunate. He was being an ass. Were you telling that story to imply that I would do something like that?

No. I was trying to illustrate what women sometimes have to go through when they stand their ground and do the right thing.

Also, that last sentence infers that women can't be strong while also being polite, respectful, gentle, and caring. That's like saying a man can't be strong unless he's a douchebag - it's completely biased horse-dribble.

I 100% agree with both parts of this statement.

I really doubt that was the point. What I got from the story was that women can be seen as being "bitches" for simply doing their job and not allowing others to walk all over them. Is that fair? No. Does it happen? Yep.

You got it exactly how I meant it.

Did you report that to the sergeant's superiors? That was an incredibly inappropriate thing to say, especially since you were simply asking him to do his damn job.

No, and I should have. I did complain to my manager, and got the "well it's a he said she said" situation . . . ie, she was spineless and made it clear I wouldn't get backed up. I was a temp employee technically (I'd worked at that hospital on an interim basis for the better part of seven years), but everyone knew me so that particular sergeant got the cold shoulder from the staff for awhile when word got around about what happened.

[Mytical]

I am a nice guy. Yes, I do tend to get taken advantage of a lot, but I also do have my convictions. I am useless as a handy man. I can not fix, repair, or otherwise help in any manner if something breaks down. I would rather pay somebody else who knows what they are doing. Maybe not so much any more, but I considered myself strong despite all that. My illness has left me a lot weaker physically.

Now you might wonder how this has anything to do with the thread. Women are not the only ones judged by society based on how they act. I could be considered by most to be a wuss, because I am the shy quiet type that has no issue deferring to a female. Especially if said female knows more about something then I do. I don't consider myself a wuss..or 'whipped'..however. I firmly believe that all relationships should be give and take. Compromise and honesty are key.

Females can be strong and feminine at the same time. They can know what they want, not be afraid to get it, but still be caring and tender. A guy can be strong and 'fluffy' at the same time. Ready to sacrifice everything for the one he loves, but as gentle as a lamb until that time comes.

I agree that if a woman is assertive they are seen as 'bitchy' and that is wrong. Just as wrong as if a guy is passive he is seen as a wimp. Ask the very few people who have pushed me to my limit how wimpy I am. Society has everything all wrong. Strength has nothing to do with who you can push around or bully..it is about that line in the sand..and when you reach it not budging past it. Standing up for what you believe in, and who you love....yes I know I ramble...

[HYHYBT]

I have to wonder what the author thinks is going to happen in a non het couple.

Those don't count; the very fact that they *cannot* fit such a mold is considered proof that such couples shouldn't exist at all, much less be recognized in any way.