CT school shooting - Horrible

[violiav]

So, the timeline so far? Goes to gunshop to try and buy a gun, fails, goes to his moms to take her guns? They have a confrontation (I'm just guessing here) , he kills her, then he goes to a nearby elementary school that they may or may not have a connection to?
One news report I read made a point to state that all of the adults killed were women, though I'm not sure how that's relevant (unless it comes to light he had some beef with women).

Eta: I did read a report that the police have a good idea of the motive, but arent saying so right now.i wonder why an elementary school? I guess because little kids are more vulnerable.

It is interesting that these things usually occur in suburban or rural areas, rather than in urban areas or the projects. Current gun control laws seem to make it easier to prosecute the actual criminal element (felons, gangsters, escaped prisoners), and are geared to prevent people already tagged as criminals from getting handguns (in Texas you don't need a background check for certain types of guns, is what I've heard) rather than the undocumented mentally ill. I really don't think you can legislate the crazy away.

[Nekojin]

Just a point of clarification, based on the news sources that I've seen - it wasn't that he was refused a gun when he attempted to buy one, just that he didn't want to have to wait the 14 days for the background check.

[HYHYBT]

The thing is, so many of these types of incidents are done by people who seemed normal and harmless, right up until. Nothing to set them apart from countless other people who would never under any circumstances do any such thing. Given that, how do you stop the dangerous ones from having weapons without also keeping them from those who are safe?

[Nekojin]

The thing is, so many of these types of incidents are done by people who seemed normal and harmless, right up until. Nothing to set them apart from countless other people who would never under any circumstances do any such thing. Given that, how do you stop the dangerous ones from having weapons without also keeping them from those who are safe?

How do you make sure that you're not selling gasoline to people planning to make molotov cocktails? How do you make sure that you're not selling deodorant cans to people planning to use them as fire accelerant? How do you make sure that the guy buying bleach and ammonia isn't going to use them to gas an apartment complex? Heck, how do you make sure that the chainsaw you're selling isn't going to be used to reenact the Texas Chainsaw Massacre?

There are literally thousands of common, everyday items that can be used to hurt other people. There is simply no way to consistently and fairly regulate so that the "safe" people have access, while the dangerous ones don't.

[Andara Bledin]

He did try to buy a gun from a local store, but they wouldn't sell him one. So he went to his mom's house and stole hers before going to the school.

Considering that the mother was dead at their home, I suspect she tried to stop him, too.

Then he just wandered the school shooting anything that moved it seems =/

Actually, it seems that he went into classrooms. One teacher, who was reported to have attempted to shield a few of her students from his attack, was stated as being a special education teacher. I find it somewhat likely that she or her class wasn't chosen entirely at random.

Also, he was apparently very, very angry, hitting most of his victims multiple times, which is why there were so few wounded survivors.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Also, he was apparently very, very angry, hitting most of his victims multiple times, which is why there were so few wounded survivors.

Yeah, just seeing that on the news now. Police are saying they actually found a lot of evidence of what the motive might be. So I'm assuming this is going to end up as another "Well he wrote 200 pages about it on Facebook over 3 months" kind of case. -.-

[violiav]

Has there been any official confirmation as to what (if anything) he had? People are saying aspergers or autism?

Eta: neither yahoo or NPR say anything about his mental status (I stay away from CNN, fox, etc).

Eta2: police say they'll release more info tomorrow about possible motive.

[Nekojin]

Has there been any official confirmation as to what (if anything) he had? People are saying aspergers or autism?

According to Andara, who has different sources than I do, there was a neighbor who indicated that the shooter had autism when it was still believed that the shooter was the 24-year-old brother. Because of the media blitz trying to get right on top of the news right away, without waiting for important facts to be released, we get this sort of crap.

[violiav]

Right, thats why I'm generally doubtful of much beyond police statements. I'd heard the autism thing from a friend earlier tonight, she said it was official, but I checked not too long ago and saw nothing official about it. Best guess is she heard it from a talking head.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, if you weren't screaming incoherent rage into a pillow yet, here you go:

Bryan Fischer spent the first hour of his radio program today discussing this morning's truly horrific shooting at an elementary school in Connecticut, which he, of course, blamed on the fact that prayer, the Bible, and the Ten Commandments are not taught in public schools.

Fischer said that God could have protected the victims of this massacre, but didn't because "God is not going to go where he is not wanted" and so if school administrators really want to protect students, they will start every school day with prayer.

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/conten...where-he-not-w

[Ginger Tea]

Because everyone knows praying makes you bullet proof

[Andara Bledin]

Does anyone who isn't already a God-pushing whackaloon even listen to Fischer any more?

^-.-^

[violiav]

I've been hearing that sentiment for awhile. What happened to the whole " As long as are tests, there will be prayer in school" crowd?andlast I checked students can pray all they want, there's just no government sponsored prayer.
And I'm pretty sure that God (Christian or not) doesn't ask for permission, or wait till He's "wanted", before going someplace. Cuz you know, God does what He wants.
Besides, if I were a religious person I'd say that the selfless acts of heroism that people exhibited showed that God was not absent from the days events.

[Jester]

Guns are the one item that draw attention. Someone who's truly serious about killing, now or if guns would end up banned, isn't going to be deterred by a gun ban for more than a moment.

Guns are not going to be banned, and I don't know any intelligent or responsible person who is calling for a ban on guns.

More intelligent gun control laws, however, need to implemented.

Look at the guy in China who did a similar rampage with a knife, less than a week ago...

Yes, he stabbed 22 people in a school. 22 wounded, 0 fatalites.
In Connecticut, the shooter shot 26 people. 26 fatalities.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people...but guns make it easier for people to kill more people more quickly.

After a thought-provoking discussion with a friend, I wrote her "I just came to the conclusion that even though I have excellent benefits and health care, it's easier for me to get a firearm than it is to get a therapist." That's pretty messed up.

It is actually completely fucked up that it is so difficult to get good or even adequate mental health care, but so damn easy to get a gun. Completely backwards from where our priorities should be. A friend of mine pointed out that it is actually easier to go get a gun than it is to get a driver's license. Anyone else have a problem with that? I sure do.

With rights (such as the right to bear arms) comes responsiblity, and it is our responsibility as a society to make sure that deadly weapons, while legal, do not to easily get into the hands of people who are mentally disturbed. Mental health care needs to improve. Access to mental health care needs to improve. And the ease with which any nut job can go get a gun needs to end.

Gun bans don't deter gun crimes. Both DC and Chicago tried that, and look what happened. Both have high crime rates, including crimes committed with guns.

And no one is talking about gun bans. We are talking about intelligent gun control laws, making access to firearms more difficult and more strictly controlled. Will responsible people still be able to enjoy their right to bear arms? Absolutely. Will whack jobs still be able to so easily acquire guns? No.

If someone really wants a firearm, they'll find a way to get it.

Yes, they will. Tragedies such as Connecticut are not COMPLETELY preventable, but their frequency can be lessened by intelligent gun control laws.

People are already calling for stricter gun laws. Why? Criminals don't obey the fucking laws in the first place! All that would do, would take them out of the hands of citizens who use them responsibly.

Intelligent gun control laws would NOT take guns out of the hands of responsible citizens, but would make access to them far more difficult for the IRRESPONSIBLE citizens who are causing all the trouble.

You are correct that criminals will still be able to get guns, albeit with more difficulty. But as Gravekeeper so eloquently pointed out, these tragedies are not being carried out by gangbangers or burglars, they're being carried out by lunatics and crazy people. People who are mentally disturbed. Intelligent gun control laws that institute more thorough background checks and sane waiting periods WILL help slow down the bloodbath that is currently in play.

Clearly we need to address the deplorable state of mental health care and access to it in this country. But we also need to make it so that those with mental health problems, those who are seriously disturbed, are not able to so easily arm themselves with deadly firearms.

Another argument I've seen, is "if the kids were armed, it would have happened."

Beyond stupid. Seriously, just beyond stupid. Even if this argument carried any weight--and it DOESN'T--the idea that a 6 year old, even trained in the use of a firearm, is going to take down an adult who's terrorizing and traumatizing everyone around them because the 6 year old is armed with a .38 just defies credulity.

Yet another argument includes schools being forced to install metal detectors and other security.

Metal detectors didn't keep Dan White from getting a gun into San Francisco's City Hall so he could kill Harvey Milk and Mayor Moscone. A determined person can get past such things. *I* could get a gun past such security measures, and I have no training in security, nor do I own a gun. We need to address the problem (i.e., the lack of quality mental care and the ease with which almost anyone can acquire a firearm) rather than the symptoms (the places where these people go to shoot people).

But again, the problem isn't even the right to bear arms, its the *access*. These people are always mentally imbalanced yet they never have any problem walking into a gun store and picking up a few handguns a week before.

Quoted for truth.

The thing is, so many of these types of incidents are done by people who seemed normal and harmless, right up until. Nothing to set them apart from countless other people who would never under any circumstances do any such thing. Given that, how do you stop the dangerous ones from having weapons without also keeping them from those who are safe?

We cannot prevent EVERY incident. That is just not realistic. Some people are just going to be bound and determined to do harm, to do evil.

But we MUST make it so that it is as difficult as possible for a mentally deranged person to get their hands on a deadly weapon. We must have better background checks, we must have better waiting periods, we must have the loopholes in the laws closed. These people don't want to WAIT to get their guns, they want to act on their impulses NOW.

Yes, there will be a few people who manage to get through even the best system. But better a trickle like other countries have han the full-on flood we have raging through our country right now.

There is simply no way to consistently and fairly regulate so that the "safe" people have access, while the dangerous ones don't.

Yes, a nut job can use any number of items to commit heinous deeds. But this country more than any other developed nation makes it far too easy for them to do so with deadly firepower.

And you are wrong. There are certainly ways to regulate firearms, both fairly and consistently, so that safe people have access to them, and the vast majority of unsafe and irresponsible people do not.

I cannot walk into the DMV and walk out with a license to drive a motor vehicle without being tested. Why should I be allowed to walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun without being checked to make sure I have neither a criminal background nor serious mental health issues?

Is such a system perfect? No. Would such a system prevent all such bloodbaths? No. But would lessening the ease of access lessen the tide of such incidents? Hell yes. Because not EVERY lunatic is going to be so determined that they make it happen either way. And of the determined ones, not every one of them that is denied a gun will manage to elude law enforcement's notice completely as they devise their nefarious plans. And without such easy access to such deadly force, not every lunatic's nefarious plan is going to be so deadly.

Merely throwing up our hands and saying, "It can't be done!" is not only lazy, it is irresponsible. It shirks our duties as a society to keep our vulnerable as safe and as protected from such things as can be reasonably done.

We have the right to bear arms, yes. But with rights come responsibilities. With the right to bear arms comes the responsibility to regulate such deadly force, to make sure they don't get into the hands of seriously disturbed people. With all the rights we have as a country comes the responsibility of repairing our seriously flawed mental health care system.

We have shirked our responsibilities on these things far too long.

[Greenday]

Yes, he stabbed 22 people in a school. 22 wounded, 0 fatalites.
In Connecticut, the shooter shot 26 people. 26 fatalities.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people...but guns make it easier for people to kill more people more quickly.

Implying that it was because he was using a knife that people didn't die. Perhaps it was his intent to maim and not kill that had something to do with the fact that no one died in the stabbings.

But go ahead and say guns are so much dangerous than knives.