Scool shooting in Finland

[Gilgamesh]

I feel that I'm calm enough to start this thread now. This is going to be long...

Two days ago a 22-year old guy marched into a class full of students, his classmates, and killed ten people. In addition, he used Molotov cocktails to lit fire to the school. Soon after, he shot himself, dying a few hours later.

The facts are available in the Wikipedia article.

This is the second school shooting within a year, and extremely similar to the previous one (on November 2007). There are strong suspicions that these shooters were in contact - to the extent that they planned the shootings together.

What makes this all worse is that the police were informed of the shooter last Friday, after a grave candle was left near the school. Videos of him shooting on a range (and breaking several rules in the process) were available on YouTube. He was questioned by the police on Monday, but allowed to leave - still in the possession of the gun.

Yes, people were already worried of him, and knew he had received a permit to own a gun on August. His friends we worried.

As a side note, the Finnish police are allowed to take away the gun if they perceive some kind of threat.* All in all, the police have a lot of freedom in granting (and revoking) permits. Therefore it might not be completely unreasonable to revoke a temporary permit when the holder post videos of himself breaking the rules that are grounds for the shooting club to ban him from practicing on its grounds. Or is it? Oh, and he was kicked out of the army, most likely due to his utter and complete inability to adjust. He was not allowed to have guns in a controlled environment, where everyone else has guns.

Although the police are not showing much interest in finding the person who took at least one of his videos, even though a rumour is that one of his friends - not in attendance on Tuesday - also holds a permit acquired in August. Yeah, just a rumour, just like the one that lead to this moron's questioning on Monday.

... I feel I'm going to throw up. Although I live on the other side of the country, I was born and raised not 50 kilometres from that place. Two of my family members study in the schools that were emptied due to other threats and one close person in the school that received a bomb threat after the shooting. My youngest sister was in hysterics for hours, trying to locate her best friend who studies at the school where this all took place (she's alive and physically well). It's just so fucking personal now.

I don't even know what I'm trying to achieve by this. It's just that I can't understand all of this. Sure, he was bullied in school. Years ago. Apparently he was pretty social and at least tolerated by those whom he shot. As mentioned earlier, he had friends who knew him well enough to become worried when he changed. Does not compute.

What the fuck is wrong with people?

Oh, and it seems that as of 23rd of September 2008 Finland has surpassed USA as the country with most victims in school shootings per capita. Lovely.



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* Finnish law, chapter 8, section 92:

Taking temporary possession

If there are reasonable grounds to suspect misuse of a firearm, firearm component, cartridges or specially dangerous projectiles, or if a procedure to revoke a related permit has been initiated, the police shall, without delay, make a decision on taking temporary possession of the objects.

A policeman shall take a firearm, firearm component, cartridges and specially dangerous projectiles away from their holder if there is an apparent risk of misuse. The policeman shall, without delay, notify the police department for the place in whose territory the objects have been taken away from their holder or the police department for the permit holder’s place of residence, of their taking away. The police shall, within 14 days of taking away of the objects, undertake measures to make a decision on temporary taking of possession of the objects, or return the objects taken away to their holder.

[AFPheonix]

Yay for undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, I suppose.

[lordlundar]

And guess who's out screaming at the top of his lungs "IT'S A SCHOOL SHOOTING! VIDEO GAMES ARE RESPONSIBLE!"

None other than gaming public enemy number one: John Bruce "Jack" Thompson.

[AdminAssistant]

Yay for undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, I suppose.

No. That's a copout. I'm not going to give folks like this guy that excuse. Just, NO. This stuff makes me so angry. That guy SHOULD NOT HAVE A WEAPON. Not even a butter knife. Here, the incompetency of the police is to blame. Why can't they pass a law mandating a psych eval to get a weapons permit? Why on earth did they allow him to walk out of their custody with a gun? Those officers can't be blamed for the shooting, but their actions should be investigated.

I grew up 30 miles from Westside and knew some people who were there. And those kids were released when they turned 18 - given new identities after the premeditated murder of 5 people. (One has already had problems with the law.) And now, I believe there is a law in Arkansas that regardless of age - if you threaten or kill someone with a weapon you are charged as an adult.

Sorry, for the OT, but this stuff really gets me upset. What goes through someone's mind that makes them think that this is ok? And then they commit the ultimate act of utter cowardice and kill themselves.

My biggest hope is that the media there backs off and allows the victims and their families to heal.

[AFPheonix]

Uhhhhh....yeah, because mentally undamaged people kill themselves out of cowardice? I'm a weeny sometimes too, but that doesn't override my innate sense of self preservation.
Nope. Chances are if there had been a better intervention in his life not only would those people in the school be alive but he may have been in a better place.

[BlaqueKatt]

Nope. Chances are if there had been a better intervention in his life not only would those people in the school be alive but he may have been in a better place.

not to threadjack but this story illustrates that point(intervention)-read the timeline for this school shooter-how many people dropped the ball?
(some notable highlights)

March 1996: Eric, still 4, is brought by his father to the Sauk County mental health unit for temper tantrums and "inappropriate sexual behaviors."

September 1997: An abuse probe is launched after Eric comes to school with a split lip from his dad. Abuse is not substantiated, but authorities deem Eric at risk and refer the family for treatment services; Shawn Hainstock(Eric's father) does not follow through.

December 1999: Eric, now 8, runs away from home after being punished by his father. Police find him past midnight sleeping on bales of hay, wet and cold; he is taken to the emergency room with mild hypothermia. He tells police he does not want to live with his father and stepmother anymore.

September 2000: Following a move, Eric, now 9, begins fourth grade in Wonewoc. He bites a student who gets on top of him. The next day, he doesn't come home from school and is found hiding in a public restroom, expressing fear about his father's reaction to his misbehavior.

September 2001: Police are called after Eric's father kicks him several times for botching chores. They learn he also makes Eric hold hot sauce on his tongue and hits him with a paddle marked "Board of Education." At one point, Shawn Hainstock tells authorities they can keep his son. Eric is removed and placed with Irene Hainstock, his father's mother. Shawn is charged with felony child abuse, later reduced to misdemeanor battery and ultimately dismissed.

April 2002: Shawn Hainstock regains custody of Eric, now 11.(9 whole months after being charged with felony child abuse-is no one thinking about the child?)

2003-2004: Sauk County officials receive two neglect referrals — one after Eric comes to school shirtless after being up late doing chores; one deeming him "filthy and smelling." Neglect is not substantiated.

2005-2006: A school psychologist notes in an undated report that eighth-grader Eric is "often hungry because his father would not pay for the discount lunch (30-40 cents)."

Sept. 14, 2006: Eric, 15, quarrels with a student and throws a stapler at a teacher. He is charged with second-degree recklessly endangering safety, disorderly conduct and criminal damage. Several days later he has a physical altercation with his adoptive mother that leaves him with bite marks on his arm and chest. (She later denies biting his chest.) She is not charged.

Sept. 29, 2006: Eric Hainstock goes to school with two guns and fatally shoots principal John Klang.

[Slytovhand]

I can see a couple of points of discussion here.

Firstly, from what very tiny little that I'm aware of with the specifics to this one, and from what Gilgamesh (Hi to the forum, btw...sorry it had to be for something this close to home!) posted, I think the police have a fair bit to answer for. What's the point of having such a law as described if they don't use it for the very reason it was put into place?? Personally, any reason, no matter how minor, is sufficient cause to take temporary possession of a firearm... and here's the consequences of what happens if you don't.

AFP and AA.... I don't know if there was or was not a 'mental illness' in effect on this person - as in a 'legitimate' one, but I am thinking that in this day and age, such things are being suggested when in reality it comes down to a person and their level of responsibility. Are emo's truly depressed and in need of psychiatric treatment - or just a swift kick up the butt cos they don't want to just deal with life as it is?

Question - did killing rampages within the society one was brought up in happen 500 years ago? Or 1500? Or 15,000? Sure, we've got better weapons to do it, but I think you get the drift. (pls note - I did say 'within society - not being invaded..).

Oh, AA... as for

Why can't they pass a law mandating a psych eval to get a weapons permit?

Need to ask the US about that one... and check out the gun control thread... (and ask the NRA).


Slyt

[Gilgamesh]

This is going to be a bit of tl;dr. You've been warned.

Yay for undiagnosed and untreated mental illness, I suppose.

Lack of mental healthcare is a problem, and it definitely played a role in the previous incident: guy was depressed, put on medication (he suddenly quit by himself) but never received any therapy despite the fact his parents tried to get him treated (but he was legally adult, so...).

This guy seems like a sociopath, but I am not a doctor, and simply going by the reports. And there was some serious ball-dropping going on with this one. Here are two cases:

1. He was kicked out of the army. The Finnish system differs from many others, so more at the end.

An article in Finnish (the source is less than stellar, though). To paraphrase: he was bullied in the army and couldn't keep up with others in shooting practice, had to practice a lot more than the others and no one wanted to team up with him. And not without a reason: when he - at last - got the permission to use real bullets, he shot - against all the rules - from behind of his team-mate. When confronted, he simply stated: "Pity I forgot to aim".

2. He bought the gun from the same shop as the previous school shooter. There are dozens of places to buy a gun in this country, and apparently he had no ties whatsoever to that town, 300 km from his own. According to official reports the cop who questioned him knew that.

It's pretty natural that some morons are already screaming that music and games are to blame, but all and all it hasn't been that bad. One fundie "Christian" blamed Atheism (I guess I might as well be the next one then ). The gun thing is getting out of hand, though.

I'm not really fond of guns, although as a hobby I'm definitely not against shooting (no, you can't get a permit to have a gun to protect yourself), and in theory the laws aren't off. What is wrong is the execution: in some cases it's possible to get a gun by filling out a form, although everyone should be interviewed. At least now they're going to require that two cops interview everyone.

I'm getting confused, though, because the most reasonable people seem to be those representing NRA Finland. I feel that the whole name thing is unfortunate, because my idea of the NRA is nowhere near the Finnish version. After last years case they sent a list of suggestions concerning gun permits to politicians. These two stick to my mind:

1. They encouraged interviewing young applicants' parents (stability, mental health - the last shooters father has told that had he known of his son applying, he would have tried to do everything in his power to stop him or the police).

2. (IIRC) Others should have someone to guarantee that they are active in some shooting or hunting club, and can be trusted to own a gun (neither one was an active shooter in the hobby sense).

Now they wish that one of the interviewers should be a psychologist. Others want to make it easier for the police to receive information of the applicants' medical background. Both should've been done after the last one, IMHO.

I just hope the police are interested in the rumours according to which this guy had said he would have a follower. Apparently one of his best friends was absent on Tuesday, another left 15 minutes before the shooter arrived. Dunno, rumours, rumours... See my first post on rumours.

At the moment I don't trust the police one bit. Yes, they did try to intervene quite quickly when the situation was on (considering it's a small town with few people and a small police force), but they retreated when they were shot at (full gear vs. .22?). There a military air base full of choppers and full-time staff (most likely many have experience as peacekeepers in eg. Afghanistan and the Balkan) about 100 km from there (100 km on helicopter doesn't take that long, right?). Were they called for backup? No.

At least the actions of that cop who questioned the shooter will be investigated. He (she) won't be prosecuted, just put on a looong sick leave, or if old enough, will retire. I'm sure of that.

My biggest hope is that the media there backs off and allows the victims and their families to heal.

They've behaved quite well this time (shit hit the fan big time after the previous one). Most of the on-site photos were of the police etc. and the new ones of flowers and candles in front of the school. The yellow press is naturally interviewing everyone who's ever seen him, but those people WANTWANTWANT to see themselves in the media, so...

Personally, any reason, no matter how minor, is sufficient cause to take temporary possession of a firearm...

Yeah, someone was worried enough to warrant police action a MONTH after he got the permit. Ummm... I think that would cause some action. However, there's and old - and crappy - joke about (at least) the Finnish police:

Why there are always two policemen in patrol?
- There's one who can read, and one who can write.

Oooh! The Westboro Incest Church cares too! They want to participate in the victims' funerals - with their own "condolence" cards. So nice. The might want to think it over once more, however: the area is known for quick-tempered people and their fondness of fistfights, Greco-Roman wrestling, javelin throw (sharp!), Finnish baseball (hurts like hell) and, really surprisingly, Han Moo Do. I don't condone violence, but things may happen when the situation is nasty in every way.



Apparently I have a lot to say about this...



Edit: I suck. Wrong Westboro link. Sorry for the .pdf.

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Finnish Defence Forces

The Finnish defence forces is based on a universal male conscription. All men above 18 years of age are liable to serve either 6, 9 or 12 months (from Wikipedia). There are two other options, but military service is by far the most popular. It is not easy to get kicked out completely, because there are so many posts for these guys (and the volunteering girls).

[AFPheonix]

I can't say that I'm too surprised by the whole shitty home life thing. Normal people who grew up in stable situations rarely if ever go off the handle like that. There is usually a reason: either bad shit happening or bad genes that lead to bad brain chemicals.
It also sounds like this guy's situation had a lot of chances to get caught and corrected instead of falling through the cracks like he did. Granted, hindsight is always 20/20, but I hope this is at least an opportunity to learn where and how systems can be improved to prevent stuff like this from happening again.