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**Greenday** · 01-23-2013, 03:12 AM

It's possible to be a nice guy without being a douche about it. Cause there's a line where you can actually be a nice douche.

Being friend zoned sucks, if you were actually making an attempt to court someone. But if your attempt to court someone was just being friendly, there's no reason to be surprised when you get treated like just a friend.

I can understand the frustration when a woman you like dates a total dickhead. But she's not dating him because he's a dickhead. She's dating him because a lot of dickhead's have certain qualities a lot of women like (Being assertive, not being a wuss, outgoing, etc.).

**AmbrosiaWriter** · 01-23-2013, 03:23 AM

Oh it's entirely possible to be a nice guy and not be a douche about it. It also does suck when you thought you were sending right signals, being "friendly" but it turns out she (or he!) doesn't really like you that way.

Here's the big difference between a genuinely nice guy, and a "nice guy."

GNG: *May be heart broken, may be sad, and may have to step away from interacting with the girl/guy because they don't feel they can just be a friend. However, they accept that her choice is her choice.*

"NG": What the fuck~! I was so nice to her and then she goes off and dates that jack ass. What a bitch, they only want to date assholes.

Basically, a true nice guy continues to be nice and think of her as a person, maybe even a good person after being rejected.
A "nice guy" does a 180 and she becomes a bitch/whore/slut etc. after being rejected.

Basically the issue is when the person claiming to be nice feels entitled to the relationship (and/or sex) and treats the person they wanted the relationship with as if they had no choice in the matter. As if being nice to them meant they were required (by some non-existent law!) to have a relationship/sex.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of women and men who string genuinely nice people along, play with their heart strings, and take advantage of them. They're reprehensible as well and should be taken out to the back and beaten with a sock of quarters.

It's just the "Nice Guys" seem to be more... insidious?

**TheHuckster** · 01-23-2013, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by AmbrosiaWriter View Post

It's just the "Nice Guys" seem to be more... insidious?

That's pretty much it, I think. When I was younger, I thought being a "nice guy" was the best thing to do, because you were being polite, respectful, and non-aggressive. Now, these are all good traits to have as a guy on a date, to be sure, but if you overdo it, you are essentially being manipulative in the sense that you do have alterior motives to move the romance to another level, but with motions so subtle, they are either completely missed by the girl or the girl considers them creepy because they don't know what the guy's true intentions really are.

It's just one of those things where if you're too nice, you're going to get kicked to the curb just as much as the guys who are too mean. You've got to find a happy medium. It's something that took me a while to "get."

**Andara Bledin** · 01-23-2013, 04:15 AM

The "nice" guys who bitch about women who won't date them aren't really nice and women can tell.

The "jerks" that those women date, however, don't pretend to be what they aren't, and as such, come off as better relationship material than the people who put on an act.

Although, I used to know a genuine nice guy who used to whine to me (I was married, so I was a safe shoulder, and it was more just being depressed about lack of attention than actual whining) about the girl he liked dating an asshole. The guy she was dating was an asshole and she kicked him to the curb the moment he hit her. She dated the nice guy for a bit, too, but dumped him because she wasn't attracted to nice guys. Go figure.

^-.-^

**AmbrosiaWriter** · 01-23-2013, 04:30 AM

I think another issue is that some people equate "nice" to "doormat."

It's entirely possible to be a nice person and not be a door mat, be confident and outgoing while also being kind.

As a general rule, girls date the "assholes" because confidence (which assholes have in spades) is attractive. Most guys trying to go the "nice" route end up looking like doormats with no confidence, so it's unattractive.

Not saying your friend was a doormat, Andara, because I don't know him. But a lot of times both genuinely nice guys and the fakes tend to not appear as outgoing and confident as the asshole counterparts.

**Gravekeeper** · 01-23-2013, 04:33 AM

Its a pretty simple difference:

A nice guy is called nice by virtue of their normal behavior towards people

A "nice guy" is making an active attempt to change his behaviour to earn the title "nice guy".

That's really all there is too it. If you're actively changing your behavior to try and earn sex, you're not a nice guy. You're just a dick with a different strategy then the dick you're complaining about her dating. ;p

**LewisLegion** · 01-23-2013, 07:04 PM

I lament the whole 'earning' sex thing. It shouldn't be a reward that the girl just doles out if a guy is 'nice' enough to her. The fact that a lot of guys think doing this will get them these mythological 'points' that he can eventually cash in for sex only underlines that a lot of people out there consider it that way.

Girls aren't vending machines you can just punch quarters into until you get what you want. If that's your goal in the relationship then I'm sorry, you aren't really a 'nice' guy, you're just a jackass without a backbone.

If a girl isn't interested in you as potential date material for whatever reason, well, as was mentioned before...that's her choice. She has every right to date whoever she wants, and no obligation to date someone simply because he's 'nice' and he 'expects' it of her. Honestly, if I had to kiss up to someone and put on some kind of act just to get them to like me in the hopes that I'd get sex or a relationship out of them...then I seriously need to reevaluate myself and my sense of self-worth.

Be nice because it's the right thing to do, and who you are. Don't be 'nice' because you're trying to manipulate someone and then get pissed at them when they aren't manipulated.

All of this was, of course, to the general non-specific 'you'.

**Greenday** · 01-23-2013, 07:57 PM

It's funny, because I bet a lot of these "nice guys" wouldn't have sex with someone they weren't attracted to even if those women were super nice to them. But they sure expect the women they are attracted to, to have sex with them for being nice to them.

**Jaden** · 01-23-2013, 08:07 PM

#3 made me laugh.

The "nice guy" phenomena does seem to be much more of a male thing, doesn't it? I wonder why that is. Probably because of societal portrayals of how men should treat women and such being misinterpreted.

I used to be a "nice guy" in my mid-teens. Now I'm just, well, whatever I am. I'm good to my female friends, honest and loyal to a fault, but it's not because I want to sleep with them. It's because I want to be a good friend. If I want a romantic relationship with somebody, then I tell them that. And if (when) they say no, I get bummed out, but these days I always try to do it early enough that I'm not so attached to them so as to become bitter, and so I can still be friends with them.

I don't have good luck with girls, but I'm not trying to manipulate my way into their pants, and if they don't like me, they don't like me. That's life.

**AmbrosiaWriter** · 01-23-2013, 09:33 PM

I think it may be a more of a male phenomena because, historically speaking, men have always been viewed as the "GO GET 'EM, YER MALE, HAVE SEX!" and women have been viewed as the gatekeepers to sex. Women have to be the ones to say no/keep their legs closed, because men were just expected to try and get into pants, because penis.

So perhaps this is the evolution of that to where now men try to get into pants by "earning it," basically getting enough reputation with the gatekeeper so the gates will open unto pussy.

**Greenday** · 01-23-2013, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by AmbrosiaWriter View Post

I think it may be a more of a male phenomena because, historically speaking, men have always been viewed as the "GO GET 'EM, YER MALE, HAVE SEX!" and women have been viewed as the gatekeepers to sex. Women have to be the ones to say no/keep their legs closed, because men were just expected to try and get into pants, because penis.

I've actually become the one who says no in my new relationship. THE POWER! IT FEELS SO GOOD!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously though, I get it. People don't say no to be mean, they say no because they don't want to have sex.

**crashhelmet** · 01-23-2013, 10:19 PM

I've been "Friend Zoned" in the past. Not every one was the same situation, but there were some where she had come out and said "Why can't I find a guy like you?" She is what I refer to as a Faye Wray or a Belle. She's a beauty that want to soothe the savage beast.

They want the bad boy, the typical Jersey Shore wannabe douchebag. They go for whatever the typical trendy guy is at the time. More often than not, these guys are players. Because they're players, they're typically assholes. They're just after their own needs. Yes, they're confident. You have to be confident to play the game.

A lot of these women think they can change them, hence the soothe the savage beast reference. They make excuses for them and say things like "you don't know the real them." The same language abuse victims use.

When it ends badly, I get the crying girl on my shoulder asking "Why can't I find a guy like you?" but only after a few rounds of "It's my fault" and "I should've done x and/or y."

**TheHuckster** · 01-23-2013, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by crashhelmet View Post

I've been "Friend Zoned" in the past. Not every one was the same situation, but there were some where she had come out and said "Why can't I find a guy like you?" She is what I refer to as a Faye Wray or a Belle. She's a beauty that want to soothe the savage beast.

Reminds me of something I read a while back...

"A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend. This always starts out with, you're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way. This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we hired."

**AmbrosiaWriter** · 01-23-2013, 10:35 PM

I saw that, TheHuckster, but I find the analogy to be incorrect.

I responded the first time I saw it with this;

Actually, it's more like she prefers chocolate chip ice cream and you're mint chocolate chip ice cream. You have mostly all the same ingredients, but there is just something about you that does not attract her in that way.

I mean, if she's not into you then there is just something about you that she (or he or whatever) just does not find attractive. There's really no way to "logic" someone into a relationship, and that quote there ("logicing") is very similar to the guys who go "But I was nice to you, therefore DATE ME because LOGIC."

To say it another way, the analogy you quoted implies there is logic in a situation where there is inherently no logic.

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