The Dreaded "Nice Guy."

[guywithashovel]

I have yet to see a genuinely nice person display the same characteristics and complain the same way the manipulator "nice" people do.

Likewise, I've yet to meet a "nice guy" like the one who is described in discussions like this. Not saying they don't exist. They just always seem to elude my hangouts.

However, I have come across lonely, frustrated people who talk about their troubles and are treated like the stereotypical "nice" people described in this thread, which is why I said what I did. Going through seemingly constant failure can be taxing on you, but at times it seems like the overall consensus is that you're supposed to be a total android about it and just move on like nothing happened.

I have been in this situation before---i.e. lonely and frustrated. Sometimes I still find myself there, though not as often as before. There was a time when I wanted nothing more than to find someone. I still would like to, but when I consider the possibility that I might die without ever having found that person, I don't get as despressed as I used to.

[KabeRinnaul]

Definition #12 is good and so is #13 on this site.

My favorite thing about those definitions are how all the guys writing them up are completely blind to their own flaws.

Though I think these two really sum it up best: "Nice Guy" (22) and "Nice Guy" (27)

Likewise, I've yet to meet a "nice guy" like the one who is described in discussions like this. Not saying they don't exist. They just always seem to elude my hangouts.

I've known two or three. The third's debatable since he showed some of the signs, but he did have a (fairly hot) girlfriend, and what did show was probably just him being hyperactive and nerdy.

The first one got to be friends with a female friend of mine, made an advance, and got rejected. Rather than moving on with his life, he stuck to her constantly, joined anything she joined, and generally tried his best to always be her best friend ever. At least when she was present. When she wasn't around, he'd constantly bitch to the rest of us about how she was a total whore for having what he considered a string of meaningless relationships (two after him, over the course of 3 years). He was extremely judgmental about her dating life, and had endless hate for anyone she was with or even showed interest in. It got to the point where he'd throw a fit if characters in our RP campaigns developed relationships, and blame it on various Freudian excuses (like his mother dying when he was young) - except that only came up if she was part of it.

I think I got to hear most of this because he considered me a kindred spirit because I'd also approached her and gotten turned down. But rather than turning into a creeper, I accepted friend status, and eventually she wound up hooking me up with her best friend anyway (aggressively - she introduced us by pushing my hands into said friend's chest), but it didn't last long after it became a long-distance relationship.

The second wasn't as severe, but he was also prone to clinging to female friends when they were around and then complaining about their relationship choices when they weren't. He knew me when I met Kheldarson, and would pretty much invite himself along whenever we did anything together. Up until we officially became a couple. Within a couple months, he'd cut us out of his life entirely, sparked a massive drama shitstorm with another friend on the way out (and blamed us entirely), and decided to find new friends. He still hasn't spoken to Kheldarson since, and only talked to me a few times afterwards, always very briefly.

[Lady_Foxfire]

I'm starting to wonder if the "assholes" Nice Guys complain about are actually bad people, or if the NGs are projecting and exaggerating their flaws. I know that some women have legitimately bad taste in men, but I get the feeling that that's not the case in most of these rants.

If you assume that your stereotypical NG is a clingy doormat, he may be interpreting normal behaviors like going out with friends without his GF, calling his GF out on her bad behavior, not paying for every meal, and setting and enforcing boundaries in the relationship as signs of him being an unworthy jerk.

[Jester]

Why yes, I DO have some comments on this subject. And yes, I'm afraid there ARE going to be a lot of them. Please bear with me....I am overly verbose (I admit it), but I think I may have a few worthy things to say here.

Before I say anything, though, I feel it is imperative upon me to repost the smartest, wisest, most insightful thing I saw said in this entire thread. It was said by someone who is likely younger than most of the others here, but her insight in this situation was dead on, and it bears repeating, as it may have been glossed over by a few. To wit:

I'm sorry, but the longer they continue to attribute their failure to these and other "nice guy" reasons, the more likely they are to experience that failure. Most women I know don't like being treated as though they owe a potential suitor anything based on how "nice" they are.

Some of the people I know who are in successful relationships used to be "nice guys", but then they realized that how they approached women and their expectations of them were the root of their problems. Breaking this cycle enabled them to rethink their whole persona and approach women as themselves, not as a chip in a bartering system.

Read these wise words again. STD speaks the truth. In both these paragraphs, in completely different ways, she cuts to the heart of the matter. To wit, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy/cycle, and the very nature of it dehumanizes and depersonifies women. Go ahead, read it again....I'll wait.

Now, with those truths so clearly stated, I shall begin my own commentary. First of all, allow me to proffer my qualifications for doing so. I am a nice guy. I am not, however, a "nice guy." See, I do things that are nice because they are the right things to do. At least, they are the right things as I see them. (I've been known to make mistakes; I have the scars to prove it.) I hold doors open for people (men AND women; it's just courteous), I try to help people out (though I am flawed in that I try to solve their problems when oftentimes I should just shut my yap and LISTEN to them), I am loyal to my friends, and I will try to make sense and calm out of any dispute. (Unless one of the disputers is a world class jackass and/or is disputing things with one of my nieces, in which case, the flamethrower may WILL come out.)

I'm a nice guy, sure. But also a bit of a bastard and asshole, and genuine enough in all of the above to feel that I am inherently unqualified to be a "nice guy."

Yes, I have complained about women I've been interested in "dating only assholes" and not seeing what a nice guy I was. However, I did not BLAME them for this, or call them ugly names. That is idiotic, juvenile, and just plain stupid. I would lament the situation, but not blame the women for it. There is, of course, a major difference betwixt the two. (I won't lie....I've always wanted to use the word "betwixt" conversationally.)

And not surprisingly, Gravekeeper eloquently sums that difference up fairly well:

Its a pretty simple difference:

A nice guy is called nice by virtue of their normal behavior towards people

A "nice guy" is making an active attempt to change his behaviour to earn the title "nice guy".

That's really all there is too it. If you're actively changing your behavior to try and earn sex, you're not a nice guy. You're just a dick with a different strategy then the dick you're complaining about her dating. ;p

Precisely, Senor GK. A true nice guy is a guy who behaves nicely. Even if it becomes a detriment to him. A "nice guy" is a manipulative douche who is acting nice in order to try to get something he desires. Nice guys either don't have ulterior motives, or if they do, they do not tailor their actions towards achieving them. "Nice guys" do just that.

Basically, one is a good, honest person, and the other is a manipulative, deceitful jackass. One laments his situation, the other blames the objects of his affection for that situation. One may think life and/or the universe sucks because he is lonely, the other thinks that women in general suck because they are not giving him the attention he "deserves."

Obviously, the don't want you, just someone like you with the addition of being attractive to them romantically.

My friend Cat is a knockout. She is also a pain in the ass, and tends to treat her men horribly. Not her friends (usually), but definitely her men, i.e., romantic entanglements, boyfriends, flings, and husbands. (She's had four.) So when I told her on a few occasions that I wanted someone who looked just liked her, but with a different personality, she took it as a compliment to her looks, which it was meant as. Because we've been friends long enough now (over 20 years) where she understands what I mean and doesn't take offense to it, and she IS aware of her horrible treatment of her menfolk.

Would I love someone who looked like her to come into my life romantically, or even just sexually? Oh, hell yes. Would I want someone like her to do so? Not on your life! She's a mess, and she wouldn't disagree with this.

My point? Simply this: What most of these "nice guys" fail to realize is that "someone like you" is not, in fact, YOU.

All you single females reading this thread, though, please don't say things to your guy friends like "I wish I could find a guy like you!" No matter how good your intentions, it just makes things confusing.

Many people here will overlook Jaden's comment here. They shouldn't. Because, while most women who say this mean it as a compliment, it is rarely taken as such. Unless you are really good friends with someone, and go way back, and there is no sexual tension or desire on either part (see my example with my friend Cat above), it just can NOT go over well on the male psyche. "So, you want someone LIKE me, but not ME? Oh, that's just wonderful. Nice slap in the face there." The average male (and even the above average male) will equate this to either a direct rejection of them as any form of romantic worthiness, or else a complete blindness on the part of the female saying it to see what is right in front of her.

This is not just something that happens with manipulative and clueless "nice guys." It happens with actual nice guys, with average guys, with guys in general. It's happened to me, and I dare say virtually assuredly with many other male readers of this thread.

The fact is that men and women are wired differently, and what a woman perceives as a compliment to a male friend can, in fact, be viewed as a major slight by that friend, even if they have no romantic intentions, but especially if they do so.

Any woman who is reading this and can't understand how we as men cannot take a compliment like that as the compliment it was intended, ask yourself this: Why do you object so strenuously when any guy tells you that you "look fine"?

I rest my case.

Edit: Further point - What's wrong with fedoras?

Sidetrack time!

Yes, what IS wrong with fedoras? Not everyone who wears one is a dick, or a manipulative assholes (i.e., our "nice guys), or even a magic trick performing judge on a tv sitcom.

Myself, I love fedoras. Can't wear them. They just don't look right on me. My friend Frank, however, has several, and looks smashing in them. It is, in fact, his trademark. Me, not so much. But I know few people who can pull of a jester's hat as well as I can. Frank, certainly not. Which is why I love this one picture I have from years ago, of me wearing one of Frank's trademark fedoras, and him wearing one of my many jester hats. We're both smiling, clearly enjoying the hell out of our night, and both of us look utterly and completely ridiculous.

But just because I look completely terrible in a fedora doesn't make them the sign of the Beast!

My friends and I have a simple rule - "Nobody is cool enough to pull off a fedora."

Some people actually are. Sammy Davis, Jr., for one. Frank Sinatra, for another. And for the record, my friend Frank IS actually cool enough to pull of a fedora. He even convinced the local DMV office to take his driver's license photo while wearing his aforementioned fedora. Now, if that's not cool, just what the hell IS?!?

I think a lot of the people who say "But I'm a nice guy/girl! Why can't I find someone?!?!?!" are just blowing off steam. It has become trendy to mock these people and portray them as wusses, shysters, etc., but let's be honest. If you're a decent person overall, and you're facing what seems like constant rejection, it can get frustrating. It can make you look at other people and think, "What the heck do they have that I don't?"

Been there, done that. I understand this whole thing oh so well. For I have often asked myself, "What the hell is wrong with me that SHE is with HIM and not ME?"

Many alleged nice guys/nice girls are, in fact, just blowing off steam, venting, expressing frustration with the situation. Doing so does not automatically make you a jerk.

I am hardly a wuss, I am definitely not shy, but romantic inclinations don't always work out the way I want. And I may bitch about them from time to time. Doesn't make me a manipulative "nice guy" that is as phony as a three dollar bill.

Again, not all nice guys are "nice guys" as they are being defined here. Some nice guys are just actually nice guys that are not having as much success as they would like and/or as they feel like they may deserve. This is not to say that any women owes them for being nice--they don't--but they may feel like they've lived their life right, done things the way they were supposed to do them, and then they see Jackass McDouchebag waltzing away with Maryanne AND Ginger. And that, my friends, can in fact be frustrating.

The difference is, as has been stated, how you react to that. Do you lament your bad luck and wonder what you are doing wrong, or do you blame the woman or women that are the object of your desire, or worse, their entire gender? That is the difference between a genuine nice guy who is just frustrated, and a fake "nice guy" bitching about not getting in some girl's pants.

...and that's why it's so difficult for some of us. There's no logic to it.

No, there is no logic to romance. There never has been, and there never will be. Relationships, perhaps. Marriages, often. But romance? Love? Not a chance. The very minute you try imposing logic on these things, you lose all credibility. It sucks, yes, but that's the basic truth of it.

I tried and for a very long time failed at explaining this to Captain Dickhead many years ago, he was trying to buy love by showering this girl he knew with gifts (two iPod's after she 'lost' the first), loaning her father money, paying her rent or parts of it and as she lied about being pregnant (he was never 'the father' it was her ex's) to get a council house (not just to the council but a fair few friends of her's and him) he got her a pram and baby nicnaks, most he got out of it was a cuddle and she never seemed 'friends' with him and he was a bit stalkerish at one point and before she severed contact with me, not that I minded, I told her to get a restraining order out on him which she said she would.

To be perfectly fair here, Captain Dickhead was in the wrong, but the object of his affections was, from your description, a lying, using, manipulative piece of work herself. She used his affection for her to get gifts, she lied about various things to get things she wanted (iPods, a house, rent money), and she basically led him along (allowing him to buy her stuff, giving him the occasional cuddle) until she tired of him, and then kicked him to the curb and got a restraining order against him. While he was clearly delusional about her, and should probably be taken to task for all that he did for such a woman, she is not without blame, and acted as a catalyst for many of his actions. Yes, he is kind of an example of a "nice guy," but this woman was as much to blame for his actions as he was, and was not, as many women are, the innocent and oblivious object of his devotion.

Generally speaking, if someone actually refers to themselves as 'a good guy', then they aren't.

I completely disagree, sir. You can be good and not say it, and you can also be good and say it. One is modest, the other is simply not bothering with false modesty. Stating that one is good does not automatically disqualify one from being good. Sure, there are plenty of people that talk about how good they are, but their actions don't measure up to their words. But there are also people who will point out, for whatever reason, their goodness, and they are.

To put it in a blunt and crude analogy, there are guys with big dicks who don't say they have big dicks, and guys with big dicks who brag about them. Expressing the truth does not automatically refute the truth. It may cast doubt in other people's minds, but it does not in and of itself negate the truth of the matter.

Likewise, there are bad people who say they are bad, and bad people who don't say they are bad. Saying it doesn't confirm or negate the fact.

And yes, some of you may detect a bit of defensiveness here. Because on many occasions, including this thread, I have referred to myself as a good and/or nice person. Why? Because I am. To deny the truth would be, as I stated above, false modesty, which is something I simply don't believe in. I try to do the right thing, and while I often fail, I also often succeed. I will not hide behind demure lies about my nature simply because it is considered boastful or bragging by some. After all, it is not bragging if it is backed up by the truth.

(continued...)

[Jester]

(...continued)

I've heard one theory on that why these girls keep dating assholes, and don't date the nice guys. The theory goes like this:

With the nice guy, the girl gets treated the same as everyone else. The guy is just as nice to her as he is to the little old lady down the street. She doesn't feel special with him.

With the dickhead, the girl gets treated nice, while the dickhead is a dickhead to everyone else.

Another theory, one I generally subscribe to (as I've seen it in action more times than I can count) is that a lot of women date assholes because of their feelings of self-worth, or rather, the lack thereof. Many women feel, for whatever reasons, that they are worthless, that they don't deserve happiness, that they shouldn't try for something greater because they don't deserve anything greater. So they settle for someone who reminds them of how worthless they are, or for someone who is below what they do, in fact deserver. They settle for assholes, for liars, for cheats, for manipulators, for scumbags, for junkies, for alcoholics, for abusers. They settle for what they get because they feel they have no right NOT to settle for it. And even if they get rid of Douchebag A, their low self-worth guides them to find another Grade A Dipshit. Lather, rinse, repeat. An often endless cycle.

I've come to accept that my only options to be treated well are with guys that I will never truly find attractive or good enough for me, the only ones I want are the ones who won't feel the same about me. Such is life.

I disagree. Such is not life. Such is the life you have accepted and resigned yourself to, but such is not life in general.

I could have very easily accepted and resigned myself to something similar, that I would only find girls that were weak, or spineless, or if they were good-looking, they wouldn't want me. I've had more than one girl prove me dead wrong on this issue.

"But Jester, didn't all those relationships end?" Yes, they did. That doesn't mean I have just resigned myself to settling for something less than what I deserve. To settling for someone below my intellectual level, to someone with no spine, no personality, and no sense of humor. I have not even resigned myself to settling for someone who isn't attractive, however much I might question the worthiness of my own physical appearance.

I have not treated my relationships that ended as failures. They have helped me grow, helped me mature, and helped me figure out what I am looking for. I've learned from them, about women, about life, and about myself. Even the most toxic relationships have taught me much, and I think of even the most negative relationships in a positive way, as far as what it taught me. Were it not for The Enchantress, I would not have been ready for Blondie. Were it not for The Enchantress and Blondie, I would not have been ready for The Brit. Were it not for all three of them, and many others, I would not be ready for whoever is next.

Don't settle, Blas. Don't ever settle, or feel like you have to. You don't. Ever.

They were joking about how their girlfriends had to have the passwords to their Facebook and e-mail accounts, and be able to see their BF's phones when they ask for it. They were acting like this is normal.
Then, when I tell them that's really not normal and actually shows that their girlfriends REALLY don't trust them, the response was, "It's just what chicks do."

No, it's not what chicks do. I've known many women in my time, as lovers, friends, coworkers, relatives, girlfriends, acquaintances, and even a fiance. And in my experience, this not what women do. It is what people completely insecure in their relationship do, be they male or female. I've seen guys like this, too. And every time, guy or girl, man or woman, the people who engaged in this type of behavior were absolutely, utterly, and completely insecure in the strength of their relationship with their significant other.

By the way, giving your password for your account for anything to anyone is idiotic. My fiance never asked for my password for anything, nor would I have ever given it to her. And vice versa. Why? Because we were adults who were secure in our relationship with each other, and our accounts were OUR accounts. Period.

If you're a decent person, and you're not having much luck, it can make you look around and say, "Gee, I may not be perfect, but I'm an okay person, and most people seem to like me platonically; why can't I hit it off with anyone in that special way?" You don't think you're entitled to sex just because you did something nice for someone. You aren't spineless. You're just an overall decent person who can't seem to find love, and you get frustrated, especially if everyone else around you seems to find it at the snap of a finger.

The problem is that the nice guy gets lumped in with the "nice guy." The person you are describing is the true nice guy, and many of them (and us, I include myself in that group) do genuinely lament their situation(s). Shit happens. It's human nature to be sad when things don't work out the way you had hoped. Unfortunately, a bunch of manipulative douchebags came along, acted nice, didn't get laid, and bitched about how they as "nice guys" weren't getting any play. As if they were OWED it. And they blamed the object of their desires, or the gender of said object, for it. And that is douchebaggery at its finest.

So yeah, it sucks that the genuinely nice guys got lumped in with the fake "nice guy" douchebags. But the latter is what many people are reacting so negatively towards. And honestly...can you really blame them?


I'm a nice guy, and I stand by that statement proudly. But woe be anyone who lumps me in with the poser "nice guys," for I am not fake, I do not blame specific women or women in general for my failures to properly woo them, and I do not believe I am "owed" sex. I'd LIKE it, of course--DUH!--but do not believe I am or ever have been owed it.

Well, except for Raps, because he lost a bet, and now owes me a hand job. But that's a whole 'nother story.

[Rapscallion]

I completely disagree, sir. You can be good and not say it, and you can also be good and say it. One is modest, the other is simply not bothering with false modesty. Stating that one is good does not automatically disqualify one from being good. Sure, there are plenty of people that talk about how good they are, but their actions don't measure up to their words. But there are also people who will point out, for whatever reason, their goodness, and they are.

How many customers who claim themselves to be good customers were actually good customers? My experience is that the retailer knows who is a good customer without being told, and those who tell aren't.

And yes, some of you may detect a bit of defensiveness here.

I expected to smell it.

Because on many occasions, including this thread, I have referred to myself as a good and/or nice person.

Yup, that's why.

Why? Because I am. To deny the truth would be, as I stated above, false modesty, which is something I simply don't believe in. I try to do the right thing, and while I often fail, I also often succeed. I will not hide behind demure lies about my nature simply because it is considered boastful or bragging by some. After all, it is not bragging if it is backed up by the truth.

(continued...)

My experience belies your intent.

Well, except for Raps, because he lost a bet, and now owes me a hand job. But that's a whole 'nother story.

I was wondering about taking a couple of weeks off. Now I think I know of a decent holiday destination. I'll have to wear gloves, though. Studded. On the inside.

Rapscallion

[Andara Bledin]

How many customers who claim themselves to be good customers were actually good customers? My experience is that the retailer knows who is a good customer without being told, and those who tell aren't.

I'm a good customer. In fact, I'm a damn good customer to the point where multiple retailers have given me freebies because of it. The guy at the door of the place I shopped last night (who is normally quite jovial) made a point to greet us and mention he hadn't seen us in a bit despite the fact that hundreds of thousands of people pass by him every week. And I'm not shy about telling it and it doesn't make it any less true.

I'll have to wear gloves, though. Studded. On the inside.

For her his pleasure?

^-.-^

[Nekojin]

I'll have to wear gloves, though. Studded. On the inside.

Rough trade!

... I'm pretty sure I know one or two people who would like that, though.

[TheHuckster]

How many customers who claim themselves to be good customers were actually good customers? My experience is that the retailer knows who is a good customer without being told, and those who tell aren't.

I think on the vein of "I'm a good/nice guy" or "I'm a good customer" most people who are genuinely these things tend to use different and less direct language. I.e. "I do everything I can to be a good person" or "I try my damndest not to give a clerk a hard time."

On top of that, in cases that I think Raps and others are thinking when someone says "I am a good person" or "I am a good customer" it's in the context of their belief that they are entitled to something they really aren't. ("I'm a good customer, so why won't you give me a discount?" or "I'm a nice guy, so why won't you let me into your pants?")

[Rapscallion]

For her his pleasure?

^-.-^

For mine.

Rapscallion

[Jester]

How many customers who claim themselves to be good customers were actually good customers? My experience is that the retailer knows who is a good customer without being told, and those who tell aren't.

I was talking in a more general sense, of life and such, especially since this thread is about "nice guys" and guys who claim to be such who may, in fact, not be such.

I agree with you that oftentimes when a customer says they are "a good customer," they aren't, though even that is not absolute. But to say that no one who ever says they are a good customer/person/guy/girl/Hutt are, in fact, as good as they claim is simply untrue.

My experience belies your intent.

And in that sense, your experience differs from mine. Again, yes, people who claim to be "good customers" often are not. But many of my bar customers who have proclaimed themselves thusly have, in fact, been good customers. A lot of it depends on the context of the claim. For example:

On top of that, in cases that I think Raps and others are thinking when someone says "I am a good person" or "I am a good customer" it's in the context of their belief that they are entitled to something they really aren't. ("I'm a good customer, so why won't you give me a discount?" or "I'm a nice guy, so why won't you let me into your pants?")

These people are just as Raps paints it: bad customers. Anyone trying to get something unwarranted, free, or special by applying the label of "good customer" to themselves is, in fact, not a good customer. There are, I'm sure, a few rare exceptions to this, but overall, it is as Raps says.

But someone simply claiming to be a good customer in casual conversation ("I've been a good customer of The Blue Bathtub for years, and was very sad to see them go out of business.") does not automatically exclude them from so being.

Likewise, the mere claiming of niceness by a person in general, i.e., "I'm a nice guy," does not mark that person as NOT being a nice guy. I am a nice guy. I'm also a bit of an asshole. The two are not mutually exclusive. Nor does my claim to the mantle of Nice Guy make me a "nice guy" in the context of this thread's overall complaint, i.e., the "nice guy" who thinks that by being nice and doing nice things for a particular woman or women that he is in some way owed sex, sexual favors, or dating priveleges.

In that vein, I will freely admit that I have bemoaned at various points in my life watching some lovely young lady that I fancied ignore me (a nice guy) and jump in with some raging douchewaffle. Did I blame her? Did I insult her for her choice? Did I think that I was owed something for my kind acts towards her? No. Why not? Because that's the reasoning of a douchebag. And that is something I most assuredly am not.

As has been said here, when things don't go the way you had hoped romantically or sexually, there is a huge difference between shaking your fist at the universe and screaming "Why?" and pointing at a woman you were trying to woo and screaming "Whore!" I, and many other genuinely nice people, have certainly been guilty of the former. But only a douchebag fasely claiming to be a "nice guy" would do the latter.

[Parrothead]

Thread bump, but I just found this that is relevant to the thread.

[guywithashovel]

I gotta be honest, I cringe whenever this subject (nice guy) comes up. Seriously, as soon as I hear those two words put together in this context and it's obvious the discussion is going to go that way, part of me wants to scream, even though I never actually do.

First of all, like I indicated earlier, it's often applied to people who really don't deserve it. Then, you get guys like the guy in the video that Parrothead linked to. To be fair, guys who get up and make those kinds of speeches may have their hearts in the right places, but to me, it looks like they expect every woman within a 1,000 miles radius to to pin a medal on them for saying what they're saying.

Also, if this so-called "nice guy" epidemic is really as widespread as some claim it is (and no offense to anyone, but I have my doubts), do you think that if we maybe stopped knocking masculinity so much, maybe it might be ameliorated a bit? And by suggesting this, I certainly don't mean to trivialize any of the problems women face in the world, but you can't deny that sitcoms, commercials, stand-up comedians, religious leaders, etc. have had quite a field day with shining a sardonic light on numerous masculine traits. Perhaps some of these "nice guys" see that and think that being the direct opposite of "macho" is the way to go, and then when that doesn't work out for them, they think "WTF?"

[Greenday]

Then, you get guys like the guy in the video that Parrothead linked to. To be fair, guys who get up and make those kinds of speeches may have their hearts in the right places, but to me, it looks like they expect every woman within a 1,000 miles radius to to pin a medal on them for saying what they're saying.

See, he didn't come off like that at all to me. He just seemed to call "Nice Guys" out for really being douchebags.

[Ladeeda]

To be fair, they are.

The problem is any and all arguments about why "Nice Guys" aren't are just parroting the same old rhetoric. And no matter how true, if it didn't get through the thick skulls the first ten times, it won't on the thirty-thousandth.

By now, any and all anti-"Nice Guy" spokespersons are just preaching to the choir. Their audience is the people who already know.

It's not changing anything.