Purposely hiding stuff from buyers

[Sarah Valentine]

I didn't want to hijack the other thread about people hiding shit when they sell their houses, since that one was about murders, suicides, possibly haunted houses.


I watch HGTV sometimes when I get bored and there's this show called Property Brothers it's one of my favorites, these 2 brothers help people get their dream homes by updating and opening up cramped outdated houses. More than a couple of times the people selling the house say that it's perfectly fine then after the house is purchased and it's not the sellers problem anymore then all the shit spills out. I was watching last night and the house in question was described as a great house with 1 or 2 small easy fixes, when they started they found out the place was a total shithole. There was mold, termites, roaches, the plumbing wasn't properly sealed, they had to rebuild some of the walls, extreamely faulty wiring, something wrong with one of the gas pipes, half the place wasn't under a permit, and almost nothing was up to code. I'm pretty sure they could sue the shit out of the previous owners for lying to them, they sold it as less than perfect when it was actually a total shithole. I personally think that sellers should be made to have an inspector check out the house before its put up for sale to make sure everything is safe and up to code and fix all that shit before the house is put on the market, cause none of that shit would fly with me I'd drag their ass to court because I seriously doubt that shits legal. It's funny how a tv show can make you think about stuff like this, but they should also give people advice on how not to get screwed over. And I believe that you should be able to talk to other people looking for houses so that way you could warn people about shity lying sellers.

[bara]

In many cases the buyer has to pay for an inspector the way the sales are written up. Even then you have to make sure you get an independent one that is not on the payroll of the seller.
A coat of paint and some carpet can cover up a LOT of problems.
I completely agree that there needs to be more protection for home buyers because its not a small investment and there are a few issues that can pretty much ruin the house all on their own. Pile them up and some one can be stuck with a money sink they couldn't give away.

[crashhelmet]

Do they have any "Lemon Laws" for houses like they do cars?

[Andara Bledin]

I caught an episode of PB once. It was amazing how un-suitable the first few houses they showed the couple really were. >_<

That said, if you are buying anything that requires a loan to afford, then it is in your own best interest to get a damn fine inspector to check it out. The fact that the RB guys let someone buy a house with mold and termites is as inexcusable as the sellers fobbing it off like that.

^-.-^

[linguist]

Do they have any "Lemon Laws" for houses like they do cars?

Not that I'm aware of. The onus is on the buyers to have a pre-purchase inspection done. I don't know of any lender that doesn't require it as a condition on a home loan.

Even then, buying a house full of problems is not necessarily an indication of any malice on the part of the seller. Hidden issues like wiring or plumbing usually remain hidden until either they become really bad, or something like a renovation occurs. They may have been present when the sellers purchased the house themselves, and they never caused enough problem that the seller had them checked out.

As for not being in code, it's entirely possible that a house (particularly with older houses) did meet code at the time it was built, but codes change. It's unrealistic to expect every homeowner to completely rewire their house (just for instance) every time the building code changes, so existing structures are often grandfathered in under previous versions of the code so long as they remain as-is. It only really becomes an issue when renovations occur, and contractors have to make certain that the current code is satisfied to limit their own liability and protect their licenses.

[Nekojin]

In our case, the problems with our house are almost entirely because the owner two back from us decided to try to do his own home renovations, without going through all of the legal hoops.

1.) He installed new windows that were cheap but serviceable, but because he didn't get the appropriate permits to install them, the windows became out of code when the code was updated (yes, retroactively - because he didn't get the permits. If he'd gotten the permits, the windows would have been grandfathered, like the really OLD ones are).

2.) He outfitted the ramshackle garage as a mini-apartment, and got the city inspectors' full wrath when they discovered it. We can probably put a washer and dryer in there, but making it into a studio apartment is way out of the question - it's not appropriately insulated or wired for that.

3.) He installed new fixtures in the bathroom, but did shoddy work on the installation. The tub is about 5 degrees off true, which means that water pools in the tub rather than draining properly. Less than a quarter-inch of water, but enough to cause problems. And the sink unit isn't properly trued up against the wall and caulked into place.

There are many other little problems, but these were the big three, and we were quite aware of them when we moved in. The rat-holes in several corners of the house, though... those we didn't find out until moving in, because the previous tenants had furniture blocking them. Thankfully, cats make rodent problems go away... =^_^=

[Jetfire]

Things like that are why Mike Holmes is always ranting to:

1. Get a Permit!
2. Have a GOOD/Trusted Home Inspector go through the house before you buy.

And if at all possible, be with the Inspector when he/she does the inspection so you can ask questions and tell what they are doing.

It doesn't always help (as Mike's shows have shown) but it's the best way you can try to protect yourself.

If a contractor ever says you don't need a permit, run to the permit office to double check. And if you're doing it yourself you should check it as well.

[Tanasi]

Stuff like this I don't understand. If I willing to drop 10's of thousands of dollars on something used I'm damn sure gonna make sure what I'm buying is worth the money and I'm not going to take the seller's word for it. I'll hire my own inspector to look out for me and make sure he's licensed and insured and I'll also make sure that I'll hold them responsible for their report and the results thereof. Don't be cheap when it comes to spending this kind of money.
A friend of mine was about to buy a house that had freshly stuccoed basement walls on the inside and the outside was back filled over. It didn't occur to him but my wife pointed it out and then asked why they stuccoed the walls on the inside. After seeing some shifty eyes and stammering from the owner and realtor they ran away from that one. BTW my wife and middle daughter are architects.

[HYHYBT]

Interesting. Of course, there *are* reasons other than hiding problems someone might want to stucco an inside wall, but their reaction speaks volumes.

(And reading this thread has me looking at the dark spot on the ceiling. The roof was fixed right after the leak was discovered, and remains sound, but I've never felt like painting the ceiling just to cover the mark and hardly ever even notice it's there anymore. But I can just imagine a potential buyer wanting to know why there's fresh paint up there...)

[AccountingDrone]

Interesting. Of course, there *are* reasons other than hiding problems someone might want to stucco an inside wall, but their reaction speaks volumes.

(And reading this thread has me looking at the dark spot on the ceiling. The roof was fixed right after the leak was discovered, and remains sound, but I've never felt like painting the ceiling just to cover the mark and hardly ever even notice it's there anymore. But I can just imagine a potential buyer wanting to know why there's fresh paint up there...)

That is why you paint the *whole* thing, not just the splortch.

[Blue Ginger]

Um.. It's not just older houses.

My brother and sis's bf are both carpenters. The horror stories that they have told me would make anyone leary about buying a house & land package, let alone an already built house.

Some builders will put in the insulation and get the place inspected, then pull out all the wall insulation before the plaster goes up. Use the insulation on the next job and do the same thing. And again and again. They just pocket the money that should be going to buying insulation for each job.

A major house & land company was not doing the concrete slabs correctly. They were uneven, didn't have enough re-o (sp?) or were simply half the depth they were meant to be. They have had to demolish and rebuild a large number of homes due to movement and cracking.
The same company started using a styrofoam-type product beneath the slabs as it was supposed to help ease the expanding and contracting of the volcanic clay that is in my part of the state. It works ok as long as there is about a foot or more of concrete on top. Some of the houses were built with only 10cm of concrete in the garage. It was discovered after someone jacked his car up and the jack broke through the floor. The poor guy was lucky he wasn't under it at the time.

[bara]

Um.. It's not just older houses.

I see that on HGTV all the time. Used to watch Holmes on Homes and Holmes Inspection all the time.

[Tanasi]

That Holmes on Home is an interesting show but I wonder how much of it is true. I've read some blogs that say the show is mostly BS and other's say he's just as guilty as any other contractor. I don't know one way or the other but I take what I see with a grain of salt. My wife agrees with most of what he says but she has said that he's done somethings the hard way and needlessly spent money to fix some problems. She also said he tends to over build some things but when he does that his work will last a long time. So basically six or one half dozen of another.

[HYHYBT]

That is why you paint the *whole* thing, not just the splortch.

Might as well paint the whole ceiling; the walls would have to be done anyway. Not that they're dirty or damaged or anything. They're just pink.

Someday when I have nothing else I'd rather do... or am forced.

She also said he tends to over build some things but when he does that his work will last a long time.

Overbuilt is better than underbuilt.

[Jetfire]

I'm sure Mike has made mistakes; he's only human after all. His fame has affected what he can do too. If you see his earlier Homes on Homes eps, he's very different from what he does now.

I know, and Mike knows that very few people can really afford to build to the Mike standard. He overbuilds and makes it explicit that he's doing that. But looking beyond that, he does highlight a lot of what people can and should look for, and the common problems that can happen. And generally speaking building over code is better than building undercode.