No college? No worth as an employee.

[LadyBarbossa]

Mods, forgive me if this is in the wrong place, as I don't post here that often.

This has bothered me for as long as I've been in the working world. I did not attend college upon finishing high school. Why? I feel that college, for as much as it's pushed in today's society, is not for everyone, and frankly, I knew it wasn't for me. This has severely limited my job choices. Some positions, understandably, require a person to have attended classes in order to perform the job. However, it seems that even low-paying retail employers feel that job candidates need to have attended school just for the sake of doing so. Even state prisons frown upon applicants who have not attended college because apparently, you can't prepare a document unless you have a degree saying so. I've seen ads for local libraries wanting help, but only if the person has at least four years of college and a Bachelor's. And they boast of paying the 'right candidate' a whopping $7.50 an hour, with no benefits. That's barely above minimum wage in my state, and certainly not enough to support a person living on their own and paying bills, let alone someone who might have a family to support or student loans to pay off.

And even then, I know plenty of people with four year and above degrees who are either unemployed or working at grocery stores and Wal-Marts. So you're pretty much damned if you do and damned if you don't. And it irritates me that some places will choose the college graduate with zero experience in the field over someone with common sense and know-how just because they've got that certificate.

I suppose my main point really is that I don't think it's fair to expect a person to spend thousands of dollars on an education just to land a dead-end job that's not going to support them in life.

Thoughts?

[ebonyknight]

And even then, I know plenty of people with four year and above degrees who are either unemployed or working at grocery stores and Wal-Marts. So you're pretty much damned if you do and damned if you don't. And it irritates me that some places will choose the college graduate with zero experience in the field over someone with common sense and know-how just because they've got that certificate.

Unfortunately people equate a degree with automatically making more money. There are people that feel that just because they have a degree, they are entitled to make more money. The problem is, is that a lot of degrees are just not in demand. Is it any wonder why there are college graduates that can't find work when they major in History, literature, physical education, etc?

I dropped out of college to pursue a career in IT. It didn't make sense to me to spend 4 years learning biology when I see Phds in "my field" making only 60-70 K per year. So I decided to learn something that pays.

I later went back to college, finished my degree (in something in demand) and found out something. Despite all the years I had in my field, there was a lot I DIDN'T know. If I had had that education in the first place, I might have gone even further than I had gone. Education is a tool. And just like any tool, if you don't have the skills to manipulate that tool, you waste your time. What you major in is just as important as getting a degree. People go to college to get a degree in something they like, without realizing that 9 times out of 10 that degree is in a job field that doesn't pay well.

Education is seen as the key to getting ahead. Why do employers want that in an employee? Because it shows that they want to better themselves in an obvious, measurable way. You may have common sense and be smart, but let's face it. 90% of people are dumb and the only easy way to weed out those with ambition, skills and any other desirable traits, are to base it on education. If you don't, then you are throwing yourself in with the rest of the crabs and it will be just that much harder to climb to the top of the barrel.

My father once said, "You can't make the rules, but you can bend them to your advantage".

[LadyBarbossa]

Unfortunately people equate a degree with automatically making more money. There are people that feel that just because they have a degree, they are entitled to make more money. The problem is, is that a lot of degrees are just not in demand. Is it any wonder why there are college graduates that can't find work when they major in History, literature, physical education, etc?

Oh don't get me wrong, I realize this, but I was referring to the ever-growing trend that one will need a degree to get any job (ie, cashiering at a store, cooking at a sports bar, etc).

[ebonyknight]

Oh don't get me wrong, I realize this, but I was referring to the ever-growing trend that one will need a degree to get any job (ie, cashiering at a store, cooking at a sports bar, etc).

Education is seen as the key to getting ahead. Why do employers want that in an employee? Because it shows that they want to better themselves in an obvious, measurable way. You may have common sense and be smart, but let's face it. 90% of people are dumb and the only easy way to weed out those with ambition, skills and any other desirable traits, are to base it on education. If you don't, then you are throwing yourself in with the rest of the crabs and it will be just that much harder to climb to the top of the barrel.

My father once said, "You can't make the rules, but you can bend them to your advantage".

It's just a standard set to get the "best" people for their positions.

Let's face it, you said it yourself. There are a lot of college grads out of work, so why not choose from them?

[AdminAssistant]

Is it any wonder why there are college graduates that can't find work when they major in History, literature, physical education, etc?

You can find work in ANY field. And if you're going to spend 4 years and who knows how much money in school, it should be something you love. My dad told me over and over, "Do what you want, and the money will figure itself out." They completely supported me when I went into theatre. Now I'm working on an academic career, which takes even more school and prep and some luck, and I'll never be rich. But I'll be happy.

The problem is people who choose a major because they think it will be EASY not that it's something they LOVE. I loved my undergraduate theatre program, because in the first year the professors scared off everyone that wasn't really serious about putting in the work.

I agree that college is not for everyone. But, when looking at these unemployment numbers, this economy, job market, etc... Having skills/education is KEY. During the year between undergrad and grad school, I worked a "lowly, retail job". Due to my degree, I got fast-tracked into a coordinator postion, and if I would've wanted to, I could have easily been an Assistant Manager. They really wanted me to stay. But theatre has nothing to do with retail!!! - you say. Au contraire. I am personable, feel comfortable speaking to a crowd, and I am a HELL of an actress, an invaluable skill for a retail employee.

[Greenday]

Eh, it all comes down to the job. If it's just working a cash register in a grocery store, you shouldn't need a degree in business to get that job. But for what I want to do, it makes sense to require a degree. I mean, if a person isn't ready to tough out four years of hard classes and labs, how will they make it in their job?

[IDrinkaRum]

My father has worked for the same Government contractor since 1991. He was in the military for 23 years. Of those 23 years at least 1/2 of that (maybe more) were in supervisory/managerial positions (or whatever the equivalent is in the military). My father couldn't get a promotion until he had a degree. He had the experience, everything they were looking for in the position but no piece of paper. It was stupid and frustrating. And everyone I've talked to says the Government Contractor my dad works for is full of you-know-what.

[otakuneko]

While it sucks they put the degree in the ad, keep in mind, the ad is the employer's "dream candidate" and usually they're willing to "settle" for less. They probably don't really think they're going to get a college grad for $7.50, but they'd sure love to.

Some job ads are just plain BS.

[XCashier]

I've seen ads for local libraries wanting help, but only if the person has at least four years of college and a Bachelor's. And they boast of paying the 'right candidate' a whopping $7.50 an hour, with no benefits. That's barely above minimum wage in my state, and certainly not enough to support a person living on their own and paying bills, let alone someone who might have a family to support or student loans to pay off.

I think it's the current economy. With so many people out of work now, supply is vastly outweighing the demand and the few employers who are hiring can have the pick of the crop at the lowest bid.

I feel your frustration; I'm in the same boat. I have seen ads for jobs that I can do, am more than qualified to do, but because I only have an Associate's degree, they won't even consider me. Who the hell needs a Bachelor's degree to do a minimum wage file clerk job?!

Believe me, I wish I had a Bachelor's or better, but I could barely afford to get the Associate's. College, even community college is mucho expensive, and I never had the money to go further, still don't.

While it sucks they put the degree in the ad, keep in mind, the ad is the employer's "dream candidate" and usually they're willing to "settle" for less. They probably don't really think they're going to get a college grad for $7.50, but they'd sure love to.

I wish you were right. Even when I've applied for those jobs, they just refuse me because of the lack of a Bachelor's.

Some job ads are just plain BS.

Oh, I agree. Especially the ones the temp agencies run to reel in applicants. They'll put up a job that's a perfect fit for me, I apply, the very next day, I get a call saying they've "filled the position." In ONE DAY?! Yep, sure, and I've got a lovely ski lodge in downtown Phoenix I'd love to sell you.

[Pedersen]

Something that might help all of you out (I hope) is the realization that the want ads are the single worst way to get a job. That's right. The worst way. You cannot find any worse way to seek employment.

Why? Assume the ad is run only in local markets. That means only people within 20 miles of the job. Depending on where you live, that means anywhere from a few thousand to over several hundred thousand people get to see the same job advertised. Assume that only 1% of the people who see it apply for it. That means anywhere from a couple dozen to hundreds, even thousands, of people applying for the same job you are coveting.

The hiring manager then has to review those resumes, schedule the interviews, perform the interviews, and make the choice. A choice, by the way, that study after study has shown is made in the first 30 seconds of the interview, typically before you sit down.

So, in the best case scenario, you're one of a few dozen people applying for a job. Your resume has to get the manager's attention out of those few dozen. If it's in the second half of the stack, he's going to have read at least a dozen before reading yours. His eyes are glazed, and he's tired. He's not likely to read yours with the same gusto that he read the first one. You're already trying to dig yourself out of a hole, and he's not even seen your name!

Want ads really are the absolute worst way to find a job.

So, how to do it? How to find a job? Well, that's precisely it: Finding it. Here's the steps:

1. Find a way to describe yourself and your strengths in under 30 seconds. Make it memorable, make it cool, and be capable of delivering it on cue to anybody at any time without a single stutter or trip up.
2. Find at least a dozen places you can visit over the course of a single day that you would actually want to work at. Call them up, and find out who would be your boss. Get a name for that person, and find out that person's normal schedule.
3. Pick a day. Dress as if you're going to an interview. Have many copies of your resume (and, if applicable, portfolio) handy for that day. Show up, and speak to whomever acts as receptionist, and state that you would like to speak with the person you've identified for a few minutes.
4. When you do get to speak to that person, introduce yourself, deliver your 30 second spiel, and hand over resume/portfolio. Thank the person for their time, and offer to answer any questions they may have right then. If they shoo you off, point out that you are also available by phone or email. Then say thank you, and (and this is important) state how much you look forward to hearing from them. This matters! You want them to know you want to work for them in particular!
5. Move on to the next place.
6. At the end of the day, send thank you emails to the people you spoke with. Include your contact information.

Be ready to deal with a lot of rejection. Also be prepared to be surprised.

The simple truth is that companies are always looking for someone who can do the jobs they need done. As such, if you are capable of doing what they need, you will get call backs. Furthermore, you will be the only one getting that callback, since you're the only one who's even an applicant for the job because there's no want ad.

By the time companies put out want ads, they're desperate. They're hurting, and they need some help or they'll never get their workload under control. At that point, any warm body is pretty much sufficient. You, however, are getting in there before they're desperate by using this technique. It's hard work, but it will get you a job. And, under these conditions, your degree (or lack thereof) won't matter.

An extreme example that I read about (but can't locate right now) is the guy who wanted to work at a specific video game company so badly that he grabbed a star wars stroomtrooper figurine, put it on a base with his name on it, and then delivered it (along with his resume and portfolio) to the hiring manager while wearing a full storm trooper costume. And yes, he got the job. And part of the reason was the delivery. Even the CEO of the company noticed, and wanted to know more about him.

ETA: Found him! Story is here!

[protege]

I think it's the current economy. With so many people out of work now, supply is vastly outweighing the demand and the few employers who are hiring can have the pick of the crop at the lowest bid.

That's exactly what's happened. I got my accounting degree back in 1998. At the time, there simply weren't many jobs (locally) to choose from. I got lucky with my job, mainly because I knew the right people.

Does anyone remember Enron's accounting firm, Arthur Anderson? They were a very large company, that happened to have offices here. When Enron, and Anderson got busted for "creative accounting," people started leaving the firm. Then Anderson imploded, and is now a shell of itself.

What happened to those employees? Well, suddenly you have a few thousand accountants out of work, and only a few jobs at other firms...and things got interesting. Because there were so few jobs, those firms could get away with a smaller salary than normal. Unfortunate, but it's simple Economics 101--if something is scarce enough, people will do anything...including give up a crapload of cash to get it.

Even now, it's still like that. Most employers want to pay crap for wages, and can't understand why no CPAs or people with MBA degrees will apply. For one, the CPA test isn't cheap, and neither is additional schooling. Sorry, but why should I spend the extra cash, if getting another job means I'll be making *less?*

While I'm at it, I should mention this--my company will *not* hire people who either don't have a degree, or are working on one. Why? Look at it this way--many of the people we hire...use the job as an internship. It's a win-win (for the most part...unless the person is a fucking moron ) situation. They get college credits, we get cheap labor.

[Slytovhand]

While I certainly agree with the OP, there are 2 thoughts that come to mind.

firstly, hiring an employee with a degree means that there's a person who can get promoted further, because their education will then make a difference.

Secondly, if you have a degree, it means that you've stuck with something for while - you've managed to dedicate a bit of your life to it, you've shown committment... and that's something all employers are looking for. If you don't have that piece of paper, and not a lot of experience in one area, then who's to say how long you'll stick with that job??


On the other hand, I had a mate who had been brought up on the farm. He did some volunteer work at an RSPCA. A horse was brought it - malnourished and badly treated. He thought he knew what that horse needed, but the newly fully qualified vet said otherwise. Horse died.

Some education don't mean squat!