Transgendered MMA Fighter

[crashhelmet]

Over the years, there have been a lot of discussions and controversies surrounding transgendered athletes. Most recently was the issue surrounding Kye Allums, a FTM athlete that was on the George Washington University Women's Basketball team. He was born female, but identified as male and wanted to continue playing on the women's team.

On Tuesday, professional MMA fighter Fallon Fox came out as being Transgendered. She had SRS surgery in 2006, has been on a daily HRT regimen since even before then, and started her fight career 2011.

The controversies surrounding this are on a few fronts. The first, and the one I am having trouble picking a side on, is she lied to the various state boxing commissions to get her fight license(s). The Florida State Boxing Commission has temporarily suspended her, causing the tournament she was fighting in to be suspended as well. Her application for a California license is on hold while this is all sorted out.

The IOC (International Olympic Committee) and the NCAA have adopted a "Transgendered Policy" that states that trangendered athletes can compete as long as they have had SRS and have been on HRT for at least 2 years. I read somewhere that the Georgia State Boxing Commission has adopted the same policy, but Florida has no policy on it at all.

Part of me thinks she should be suspended for lieing on her applications. The other part understands why she did. Then again, did she even lie?

The other controversy surrounding this is the viewpoint that she has the "biological advantages" of being born male. The purported extra strength, body structure, etc that makes it easier for her to dominate female fighters. A large amount of the fuel to this fire is that she knocked out her opponent in her first ever professional fight in 39 seconds.

Here's the thing. Outside of special circumstances, when you fight competitively, you fight in weight classes. Everyone is relatively the same size. In this case, she's fighting as a Featherweight, which in MMA is 136-145lbs. Even if she was not Transgendered, a woman fighting her with the same level of training, and at the same weight, would be "evenly matched." Current UFC Women's Champion Ronda Rousey could easily beat any male fighter in her weight class. She's just that good.

[Nyoibo]

Being on HRT for 6 years or so pretty much erases any "biological advantages" of being born male, also, give she has a drivers license that states she is female and has had the surgery and is living as a female, she didn't lie on her application, she is female.

[HYHYBT]

The IOC's position seems about right to me. Because the separation in sports is for physical reasons, rather than social ones, it wouldn't make sense for transgendered people in (is there any way to phrase this that's not considered offensive?) their unaltered physical state to compete as their internal gender. But requiring the surgery and enough years of hormones that the body's adapted should fix that, as well as removing any rational grounds to worry that someone's gone through all that just to make the competition easier.

The only problem I see is in certain hormones also being banned substances; if they're not allowed to take them, then they cannot also be required to take them. But if they are allowed to take them and others aren't, or if there's any question of how much is for legitimate transitional purposes and how much is maybe extra... well, there could be problems there.

[Tanasi]

There's a world of difference between knocking someone out and making them tap-out with an arm bar. Gotta say Fox doesn't look the least bit male to me in that photo but it could also be photo-shopped.

[Ginger Tea]

There are probably way more pre op m2f transgendered women out there that do look female than not, some might be naturally feminine in facial structure, others might have had surgery, but unless looking for cross dressing porn, very few look like blokes in a dress, which has been shown is the default image conjoured up by some when the subject is brought up.

I too am torn on the whole body physics than anything else, how much more testosterone would she have had early on, how much HRT could be clinicaly proven to be performance enhancing etc, without looking up these numbers was she evenly matched?

What I won't question however is her gender identiy, she may still be packing heat and yet be listed as female on her DL etc, or they may only do that after said member is removed, I for one am not going to risk a smackdown on a Mick Dundee welcome just to find out.

[crashhelmet]

There's a world of difference between knocking someone out and making them tap-out with an arm bar. Gotta say Fox doesn't look the least bit male to me in that photo but it could also be photo-shopped.

I read somewhere that she had facial feminization surgery after her first fight in 2011.

Ronda Rousey making them tap with an armbar is simply because she fights to her "strength." She is a grappler first and a striker second. Liz Carmouche, Ronda's opponent last week, is a striker first and a grappler second. She had a record of 8-2-1 going into that fight. 5 of her 8 wins were by knockout.

Knocking someone out doesn't take strength or power as much as it takes precision. A hook to the chin takes less power and has a higher probability of a knockout than one to the side of the head.

At the same time, it doesn't take a whole lot of strength to be a successful grappler either. It's more about body positioning and leverage than strength. helio Gracie, the founder of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, was small and frail his entire life. He continued to teach until his death at the age of 95.

[AmbrosiaWriter]

You know, just from the title I was starting to debate in my head these things already.

Then with crashhelmet's explanations of fighting and the physics of it, I don't think there is any issue at all.

In my opinion, she did not lie. But really that's as far as I could offer my opinion on this matter as I only took Karate for two years at age 6-ish, and am just looking into starting Taekwondo.... so give me a few years and maybe I can come back with more experience in fighting. XD

[Ladeeda]

This is really just a case for making sports co-ed. Put everyone in there on equal terms. If necessary, adjust the weight classes or make a new one [I have no idea if male and female weight classes are the same, but I have a feeling they're not].

[crashhelmet]

This is really just a case for making sports co-ed. Put everyone in there on equal terms. If necessary, adjust the weight classes or make a new one [I have no idea if male and female weight classes are the same, but I have a feeling they're not].

Weight classes are the same by gender, but vary by organization and/or sport. Featherweight, for example, is 136-145 in MMA but only 123-126 in Boxing. The comparable Weight Class in boxing is actually broken down into 2 different classes. Lightweight (136-140) and Welterweight (141-147).

The more I think about this, I think she didn't lie either. Regardless of what she was born, she is female now. There was no need to list anything differently.

[crashhelmet]

I just found this link on BloodyElbow.com

Leading sex reassignment physicians weigh in on Fallon Fox

Most measures of physical strength minimize, muscle mass decreases, bone density decreases, and they become fairly comparable to women in their musculature. After as much time as has passed in her case, if tested, she would probably end up in the same muscle mass category as her biologically born female counterpart.

[Panacea]

I don't have an issue with transgendered athletes as long as some time has passed for their physicality to adapt to their chosen gender. As crashhelmet notes in his quote, after awhile the body changes and it just doesn't matter any more. This was my thought even before he found a citation.

Being on HRT for 6 years or so pretty much erases any "biological advantages" of being born male, also, give she has a drivers license that states she is female and has had the surgery and is living as a female, she didn't lie on her application, she is female.

She didn't lie about her gender, and that's not the issue with Florida. The issue is she told Florida she had a license from California; most states will give you reciprocal rights of licensure if you're licensed in another state (you still have to pay fees and fulfill other state requirements). However, Fox had only applied in California, and her license there was actually still pending. What she had was a receipt for her application, not a license itself. She's claiming that she didn't understand a receipt is not a license. I don't buy it for a minute.

California stopped processing her application there and is waiting for Florida to decide what it is going to do about her application in Florida. If she's denied in Florida, I'll bet she'll be denied in California. If Florida buys her story and she's approved in Florida, California will probably give her a pass and license her there as well.

This whole hubabaloo really doesn't have anything to do with her gender identification.

There's a world of difference between knocking someone out and making them tap-out with an arm bar. Gotta say Fox doesn't look the least bit male to me in that photo but it could also be photo-shopped.

I doubt it's photo shopped. I once knew an immigration detainee (back in '96) who, when she arrived in the jail made me wonder why she'd been arrested. She was drop dead gorgeous and look very sharp in a professional business outfit. I was stunned when the INS officers told me she was female and was going to be housed in medical because they couldn't risk putting her in either a female block (because she had had NO surgery at all, just hormones, hence still had her male parts) or a male block (she looked very female and identified as such). The risk of sexual activity/exploitation was too high, and it actually was partially an effort to protect her (partially to protect the jail).

[BlaqueKatt]

She didn't lie about her gender, and that's not the issue with Florida. The issue is she told Florida she had a license from California; <snip> What she had was a receipt for her application, not a license itself. She's claiming that she didn't understand a receipt is not a license. I don't buy it for a minute.

Ah so the "i'm in trouble for a valid reason, let's see if I can claim some sort of discrimination card to make this go away, because the group I'm in trouble with won't want to look bad" card.

I doubt it's photo shopped. I once knew an immigration detainee (back in '96) who, when she arrived in the jail made me wonder why she'd been arrested. She was drop dead gorgeous and look very sharp in a professional business outfit.

I'm quite androgynous, depends on my outfit as to if I look male or female. Biologically I have 2 X chromosomes, however I do have low estrogen levels and high testosterone levels-for no reason other than that's what my body makes for some odd reason.

[Nyoibo]

Ah so the "i'm in trouble for a valid reason, let's see if I can claim some sort of discrimination card to make this go away, because the group I'm in trouble with won't want to look bad" card.

I don't think it's so much that, from what I've read the only reason she came out as transgendered was because a reporter had found out and threatened to out her so she did it first.

[BlaqueKatt]

I don't think it's so much that, from what I've read the only reason she came out as transgendered was because a reporter had found out and threatened to out her so she did it first.

however she's claiming that's why she's being denied her license, when that is 100% NOT the lie on her application that's under investigation.