Arrested for not paying a fine...

[Rageaholic]

God forbid people have to take personal responsibility for their foul ups! How terrible!

But they aren't the ones who foul up, the police do in failing to communicate these things.

[Greenday]

But they aren't the ones who foul up, the police do in failing to communicate these things.

If you know you are supposed to pay someone money, but you don't know how much or by when, you ask. It's that easy. I mean, protege brought up the point that a lot of these random towns don't have webpages to tell you how much you owe. None of them had webpages a few decades ago. How did people figure it out then? They went and they asked. I get it's not always convenient for people to do that, but then they shouldn't have broken the law in the first place.

[BlaqueKatt]

But they aren't the ones who foul up, the police do in failing to communicate these things.

see above, and it's a courtesy, not a requirement, the police will also not come to your doorstep to give you a list of all the laws in your jurisdiction, it's your job to find out what they are and abide by them(and most are NOT online, you have to head to the law library in your jurisdiction and actually read books). Ignorance is not an excuse. Which is pretty much what you're arguing. "I didn't know, they never told me, it's not my responsibility"

[HYHYBT]

God forbid people have to take personal responsibility for their foul ups! How terrible!

Speaking more generally than this specific case where the person knew something was supposed to come and could have checked up on it, the problem is that only one side gets held responsible, no matter which side messed up. For example, take the mailed-in payment, no receipt. If you paid by check, you can look to see if it was cashed. But suppose they didn't apply it against what *you* owe? You're the one who gets arrested months or years later, not the person who typed in the wrong number someplace, and even if the problem is eventually found and reversed, you don't get anything for having been put through that.

[Rageaholic]

see above, and it's a courtesy, not a requirement, the police will also not come to your doorstep to give you a list of all the laws in your jurisdiction, it's your job to find out what they are and abide by them(and most are NOT online, you have to head to the law library in your jurisdiction and actually read books). Ignorance is not an excuse. Which is pretty much what you're arguing. "I didn't know, they never told me, it's not my responsibility"

That's. Not. What. I'm. Talking. About.

I'm talking about waiting for a fine (or in the other case) a court date to arrive in the mail then to have the cops show up and drag people away in handcuffs. There's no need for cops

As for the ignorance of the law not being an excuse, I would normally agree (people should know that killing and stealing is wrong), but considering that laws go beyond that, then maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to put the laws online so people can easily find out about them (either by their home computer or libraries). But I guess then they wouldn't be able to trip people up and get more revenue from bail money.

They probably have their own language and semantics to justify this, but in the end, it's holding people hostage for money for victimless crimes.

[HYHYBT]

Of course, the other thing is that people lie. Far more often than someone really not receiving a piece of mail, they'll *say* they didn't because dealing with the contents would be inconvenient or expensive... and the same in the opposite direction.

[Canarr]

Of course, the other thing is that people lie. Far more often than someone really not receiving a piece of mail, they'll *say* they didn't because dealing with the contents would be inconvenient or expensive... and the same in the opposite direction.

That's the main problem, I'd say. If "I didn't get my court date in the mail!" was a valid excuse, then nobody would *ever* get that mail. It would *always* mysteriously vanish. So, that's out.

Personally, I have no sympathy for someone who *knows* that there's a fine coming, does nothing about it, and then whines about unfair consequences. But I do agree with Rageaholic that arresting someone for an unpaid parking or speeding ticket is excessive.

In Germany, when caught speeding or parking where you shouldn't, the fine is mailed home to the car owner. The letter informs you what happened, when it happened, what the fine (and possibly other penalty) is, and any legal rights and obligations the owner has. If the driver was someone other than the owner, there's a form to fill out, and then the driver gets the same letter.

The owner/driver of the vehicle can now choose:

1. Pay the fine within the timeframe given (normally two weeks). All is right and no one will be bothered anymore.
2. Contest the fine within the timeframe given for that (also two weeks, I believe). Then, a court date will be set for the owner/driver to state his case why he shouldn't have to pay the fine. If he can give good enough reason, the court may rule in his favor. If he can't - or, if he just doesn't show - then the court will rule against him and he gets to pay the fine, now plus court costs. Still, he's not required to show up at court.
3. Ignore the letter and hope it all goes away. That doesn't work so well; if he's lucky, the owner/driver will receive one more letter telling him that he neglected to pay his fine, and that the time to contest the fine has now passed. Additional administrative fees will be added to the total, and one more week to pay will be given. If the owner/driver still doesn't pay, the case is passed on to the court, who issues a payment order (and yes, further administrative fees are added). Then, a court official is dispatched to the owner's/driver's home, with the order to collect on the now rather substantial fine owed, or alternatively, to seize enough assets to cover the total.

At this point, the police may be included in the process, if the court official believes that carrying out his duties requires police protection. If not, then the police never becomes involved. Even if the original ticket was written by a police officer (most parking or speeding tickets are not), the whole process is carried out by municipal employees.

Yes, I also believe that these tickets are mostly a way for communities to generate funds; but, as Greenday put it: those funds are needed. If they didn't get them from people speeding or parking wrongfully, they'd get them somewhere else, and you'd still end up paying for them.

[BlaqueKatt]

I'm talking about waiting for a fine (or in the other case) a court date to arrive in the mail then to have the cops show up and drag people away in handcuffs. There's no need for cops

I've never known ANY police department to go after someone for a bench warrant, usually they get served during ANOTHER traffic stop(which means, speedy McSpeederson, got caught speeding AGAIN).

Again most rational people would do some sort of follow up if a fine hadn't arrived(and we've already presented evidence that the tickets DO have the fine written on them), rather than assume they "pulled one over on the man, and magically don't owe the fine/the court date never got scheduled-I'm scott free!"

But no continue to say the responsibility is on the group that DIDN'T violate any laws(hint there is NO LAW saying the police or the courts have to send notification of ANYTHING, it is a COURTESY)

They probably have their own language and semantics to justify this, but in the end, it's holding people hostage for money for victimless crimes.

Well I've had a few friends killed due to so called "victimless crimes", had the person speeding through a residential neighborhood(45 in a 30) been pulled over before killing my friend, it would no doubt fit your definition of a "victimless crime", but because the driver kept comitting that "victimless crime" for a few more minutes, well it wan't so victimless anymore. It's only "victimless" until it's not, and you have no way of knowing if five more minutes would've resulted in tragedy.

[HYHYBT]

Related to this... one thing that really does need changing is the fact that you can be considered "notified" of, for example, being sued, just by its being printed in the paper, buried where few even among those who still take a paper will see it. Then when you don't show up, because nobody operating rationally would seriously expect you to know you were supposed to, you lose by default.

The reason, of course, is the same: people lie. Or, more to the point, some people deliberately make themselves hard to find. But there still has to be a fairer way.

[Hyena Dandy]

Sure, the person would have known the fine was coming.

But, based on the story, it sounds like they didn't know how much it WAS.

Are they supposed to just guess how much money they owe? Just send out a check to the court and hope that covers it?

[Canarr]

Sure, the person would have known the fine was coming.

But, based on the story, it sounds like they didn't know how much it WAS.

Are they supposed to just guess how much money they owe? Just send out a check to the court and hope that covers it?

Does the court not have a phone line that they can call to find out? "Hi, my name is XXX, I got a ticket back in November but haven't heard anything about it since. Could you please check if I've been sent anything on that, and if yes, resend it? Thanks!"

Problem solved.

[Ginger Tea]

Getting carted off cos you forgot about a fine? try this.

[HYHYBT]

This also reminds me of the time Mom bounced a check at Home Depot. She caught it herself and went over there to take care of it, only to be told they couldn't do anything until she received a notice from them in the mail.

[KitterCat]

Things like this can really be an irritant especially when the defendant doesn’t even know they have a ticket out or warrant for there arrest. I’ve dealt with both. When I moved out of WV 5 years ago I had to pay a fine for having tags out of date - what with moving I simply forgot to renew them. Ok not a problem pay the fine. Get my new license for MD. Renew that license 2 years latter. Attempt to renew it again 2 years after that. MD tells me that I have a fine from WV for an unpaid ticket for having out of date plates. They will not renew unless I pay the fine from WV. Golly gee wiz I don’t have the checkbook stub from 4 years back. State of WV shows no payment and doesn’t know how I got my license changed to MD the first two times around. In fact I should have a warrant out for my arrest, but they don’t know where I live. ??? Considering that I’ve filled out change of address forms for the post office, given info to every bill that I needed to pay and am listed in the phone book how fucking hard would it be for them to look me up?

Same state past 3 years - by the way different county, kept sending my in-laws jury duty notices for me. I haven’t lived with them for 7-10 years. I would gladly do my civic duty but I don’t even live in the state of WV. In fact I’ve already done my duty for the past 2 years in MD*. Only found out about this because my Mother in-law went to the court house to inform them for 3 years that I do not live with them. She asked what would have happened if no one had told them that I didn’t live there. Got told that a warrant would have been issued for my arrest.

So in cases like this where 1)I paid and had to pay again because of a glitch on their system and 2)for notices that I never received how I was suppose to stop a warrant for my arrest? I was luck in both cases that it never happened and that I had a person willing to tell the courts that they were wrong. Bear in mind that I had notified the post office of my change of address. All of my other mail seemed to have no problem finding me. And to be told that I could be locked up because of a $50 ticked is insane. The booking procedure would cost more than the ticket. Oh except that they'd tack on fees to up the ticket. Yeah tell me that's not a revenue gig for victimless crimes.


*In case anyone’s wondering how this is possible I live in a very small town. While we only legally are required to do it once every 3 years I figured when I was sent the notice 2 years in a row that I had the time to do it and do take my civic duties responsibly.

[s_stabeler]

Getting carted off cos you forgot about a fine? try this.

to be fair, that's an administrative screw-up, albeit a fairly serious one. Best way to fix it would be to have the notification of the next court date handed out during proceedings ( or on the original court date in cases like this)