Honor Student Expelled and Charged

[Pixilated]

This is a very touchy case, and like others on this board, I'm uneasy about those trying to make it automatically a case of homophobia (despite the views of the younger girl's parents, which appear to be exactly that). The only real question is: was the relationship with the 14-year-old (whether by another girl or by a boy) legal? If not -- and from other posts here, it appears that it was not -- then I'm sorry for Kaitlyn, but she has no real legal defence. Her sexual orientation is, in law, irrelevant.

I've heard of similar cases involving hetero relationships, in which the parents of the girl appeared to deliberately wait until the boy was of legal age and then brought the hammer down. Petty and vindictive? Certainly. Because if they didn't raise any objections when both were minors, why is the relationship suddenly problematical when one participant reaches the age of legal majority?

[Canarr]

Just a quick question, to make sure I get the state laws right.

If I'm an adult living in State A, where AOC is 18, and the AOC of the neighboring State B is 16, I could, in theory, take a 16-year-old across the state border, bang her in a hotel room, drive back - and nobody could touch me? Because what I did wasn't illegal in the state where I did it (just sleazy)?

[fireheart17]

I bet the stink was raised because both are female. If it had been a male jock on the football team or something with a younger girl it would have been ok in their eyes.

I'm more inclined to agree with you on this one. Mostly just on the idea that all women supposedly need a "big strong man" to get through their lives (which judging from a few things, seems to be the route everyone's going)

Yup. I hate to play that card, but I think the fact that it is a same sex relationship has a lot to do with why they're making a big deal over this.

This is a case where the letter of the law needs to be re examined.

More than anything, maybe making it a rule that the sentence you impose for an offence in a homosexual relationship is the same as one for a heterosexual relationship?
There was a somewhat similar story down here with an 18-year-old man and a 15-year-old boy (18-year-old at the time in high school) from memory. Parents found out, had them arrested and the 18-year-old received a MUCH harsher sentence than if he'd been caught banging a 15-year-old girl.

Teenagers are going to have sex in high school no matter what anyone says or does. Either the laws need to be adjusted to reflect this or the schools need to be adjusted to avoid the ticking time bomb the laws create. Why not just adjust the middle school > high school grade spread to avoid this completely? If you moved the youngest grade from high school and made it the oldest grade in middle school you'd solve all the problems with the law. -.-

Or merge them together (like we do down here: middle school is used more for administrative whatnot in most high schools, with Years 11 and 12 being "seniors". Year 10 tends to be a grey area, with some schools saying its middle, others saying its senior). OR maybe schools could actually provide a more thorough sex education program beyond the usual "contraceptive, puberty, pregnancy and STI" lecture that most students seem to get? (if you're lucky to get an abstinence-plus program that is)
Personally, I would LOVE to see the laws made clear to students. The worst rumour going around Year 12 was relating to age of consent (more relevant for me because I was sixteen going on seventeen at the time-yeah I was a young'un)-the short version was "boys had to be 17, but girls could be sixteen." >_<

What universe do you live in where an older male has even something as innocent as a purely platonic relationship with an underage girl and isn't immediately labelled/judged a pedophile by, like, everybody?

Both the age of the male and the age gap tend to play factors in the opinions (from what I've seen). Here's my take on it:

Gap of less than around 3 years: "OK, they're cute, it's great that she gets to hang around the older guys"/"Oh, that's cool!" "ooh, your big strong boyfriend can protect you" and so on.
Gap of 3-5 years: "Ok, slightly creepy, but as long as you know what you're doing, go for it."
Gap of 5+ years: "Pedophile, cougar, sugar daddy etc."

As for age, down here, I've seen very few men who've turned 18, get charged with pedophilia unless they happen to be actually molesting children under 14.

If I'm an adult living in State A, where AOC is 18, and the AOC of the neighboring State B is 16, I could, in theory, take a 16-year-old across the state border, bang her in a hotel room, drive back - and nobody could touch me? Because what I did wasn't illegal in the state where I did it (just sleazy)?

I think it would be more the intent if anything that would get you screwed. If you were shown to be flouting the law by driving across state borders, you MIGHT get screwed out there.

Also, aren't there federal laws covering this? From memory, I believe that federal trumps state in both the US and Australia.

[Canarr]

If I understood the posts correctly, the US don't have a federal AOC; that's purely State Law.

[Greenday]

Just a quick question, to make sure I get the state laws right.

If I'm an adult living in State A, where AOC is 18, and the AOC of the neighboring State B is 16, I could, in theory, take a 16-year-old across the state border, bang her in a hotel room, drive back - and nobody could touch me? Because what I did wasn't illegal in the state where I did it (just sleazy)?

No, because you can't transport minors across state borders for purposes such as that. That's a federal law.

[Ginger Tea]

bringing back my hypothetical last post.
If this is the case, then child A of 16 could not travel to child B's 18 state where AOC is 16, even if they went by themselves and the distance was so small being boarder town's that they could go by bycicle.

But if child A lived in an AOC of 16 and B one of 18 and they are 18 themselves and not a minor, they don't have to worry about crossing state boarders.

Regarding hetrosexual cases getting off scot free or less than a homosexual one, there may be a minimum sentence to impose, but nothing to say more could not be added at the judges discression, this is true of all cases where gender or sexual orientation are irrelevant, 3 people could be up for the same traffic violation and receive different sentence's from different judges.

Though I did write up, then delete a post with the 4 outcomes
Hetro 18yo male 15yo girl, might depend on where the male is in school hierarchy jock vs geek the parents might not care about the jock, but the geek might as well have a white van.
Hetro 18yo female and 15yo boy clips of southpark's "nice" all round.

Lesbian couple depends on how homophobic one set of parents are
Gay couple "OMG teh paedophile elebenty"

[Canarr]

No, because you can't transport minors across state borders for purposes such as that. That's a federal law.

Ah; nicely covered. Good.

As to the topic itself: I seem to remember a story here some time ago about an 18-year-old male from England having sex with a 13-year-old female, who was damn near crucified for that (at least on the internet). Accused of grooming, pedophilia, rape... from people on this forum who didn't really bother researching whether or not these claims were even correct, I might add.

So: why is this different? Why should this female honor student get a pass that the male muslim shouldn't get? If you do it, and it's against the law, you should be punished.

However, I stand by the point I already made in the other thread: teenagers fooling around with other teenagers is normal and healthy - even if one is 18 and the other is not. I do not believe in a particularly severe punishment for this crime - and I deeply dislike the US sex offender registry. That is simply barbaric.

[Ginger Tea]

I can't remember that much about his case, or what my comments at the time were without seeing if I posted them.

But I gather 18 is the general final year for American students, whereas in the UK you normally leave after 5th form unless you elect to stay on for 6th, so you leave at 16 or there about's, so for two people at that age one would be starting first year as the other was on 5th, or depending on where their birthdate fell in the academic year already left school.
I don't recall if they went to the same school, but I never socialised with anyone outside of my year (OK I found myself not well liked for no reason than being a southerner and all but ostracised by my year, but even then I wouldn't take solace with those in the 2nd or 4th year when I started in the 3rd) and the only reason I knew people in the year's above me prior to that was cos they were either friends of my brother who was 2 years ahead school wise (18 months biologically) or I knew them from my street.

In the UK an 18 year old and a 16 is legal, 15 and below I'm not sure where it stands, but I can't lay claim to knowing anyone at school who was in their final year or staying on for 6th form who might know a first former outside of them being a friend of a similar aged sibling.

I do not know the school set up in the States, are you one school from primary to secondary (UK terms) or are you using separate buildings miles away from each other like the one I went to, this helped form the idea you were in big school now and I wouldn't want to spend my years doing GCSE surrounded by 8 year olds from the other wing of the building during lunch break cos they don't split lunch times or anything else.
Hell the one I moved to in 3rd year I was only at that building for that year, 4-6th form was a few miles closer to home and we only used that one for gym in the 3rd year, having me forget I was meant to get off a few stops before and wonder why no one from my class seemed to be around.
So I never met 1st formers when I was in 4th.

Edit: I may have said this before, the couple upstairs have a 20 something age gap, they met after she was 16 closer to 18, but some people did make snide comments at the bar she worked at that he must have been grooming her since school or calling him her dad.
the age gap between the topics couple would mean nothing once they were both 18 30 or 50 same as those of 13-18 parings if the couple met on the 13 year old's 18th, after the AOC it matters not the age of the partnership although there is the whole milf/cougar/ sugar daddy stigmata, if an 18 year old wants to shack up with a 30 year old that's not an issue, but if they had been seeing each other since one was 14 then it is.

We do have social taboos about age gaps, but when you are a child 3 years is a long time, at 18 21 doesn't seem as old in comparison.

[Andara Bledin]

In the US, the typical set-up is that you attend primary until 5th grade (about 10), then move to middle/junior high school from 6th to 8th (about 14), then attend high school from 9th to 12th (freshman to senior, graduating after becoming a legal adult). Because of the various sports, clubs, and multi-level elective classes, it's fairly common for students of all years to spend time together. In the case being discussed, they were both on the varsity basketball team, if I'm recalling correctly.

[s_stabeler]

Ah; nicely covered. Good.

As to the topic itself: I seem to remember a story here some time ago about an 18-year-old male from England having sex with a 13-year-old female, who was damn near crucified for that (at least on the internet). Accused of grooming, pedophilia, rape... from people on this forum who didn't really bother researching whether or not these claims were even correct, I might add.

So: why is this different? Why should this female honor student get a pass that the male muslim shouldn't get? If you do it, and it's against the law, you should be punished.

No-one is suggsting the girl should get off scot-free. We're saying the level of punishmernt seems to be harsh for the crime comitted.

As for an 18-year old and a 13-year old, there IS a difference. it's actually fairly unusual in the UK for an 18-year old and 13-year old to interact at school- about the only time they would generally meet is if they took the same bus home. In this case, the two girls were on the same basketball team.

[Gravekeeper]

No-one is suggsting the girl should get off scot-free. We're saying the level of punishmernt seems to be harsh for the crime comitted.

I was suggesting just that actually. Because this is only illegal by virtue of being in Florida. Like I said before, their relationship IS legal in Canada. In Canada its a 5 year spread if you're 14. So 14/18 would not be an issue.

[Andara Bledin]

I was suggesting just that actually. Because this is only illegal by virtue of being in Florida. Like I said before, their relationship IS legal in Canada. In Canada its a 5 year spread if you're 14. So 14/18 would not be an issue.

It's illegal by virtue of being in about three quarters of the states of the union, actually. You keep harping on Florida, and that drum is beat to hell. Especially since a number of other states list AOC as 18 without any close in age exceptions.

In no state is the standard age of consent less than 16. None. However, there are many states that have exceptions if the older individual is a) within a certain age of the other and b) has no position of authority over the younger. In the latter case, nearly all states default to AOC of 18.

6 states declare AOC as 18 with no exceptions.
8 states declare it to be 17 with no exceptions.
20 states declare it to be 16 with no exceptions.

That's already nearly three quarters of the union under which the activity was criminal.

5 more have exceptions for which this still would not qualify.
3 have exceptions for which her turning 18 has any significance that is not already covered above.

So, it's by virtue of being in the United States.

[Ginger Tea]

Again I am not American and do not know which of those states are which in regards to laxer AOC.

Those that do have wriggle room, they might not even be legal, it might just be a case of "you both know your are under the age or one is, but we'll turn a blind eye cos it's not worth the fuss."
others the wriggle room might expire once one is over AOC, you have to know the state law more than what your neighbours are up to even if theirs is 16 and you are 30 minutes drive away.

Those of us with lower ages will see it as less fuss worthy the closer the youngest is to our AOC as we wonder why it is higher, even with ours being 16 we don't actively get on the cases of teenagers getting frisky, not unless there is a distinct age gap.

It being a state law not federal one is why we see it the way we do, least for the most part, Europe is not a country nor are EU members a fair comparison to a state, we don't really discuss other countries laws in relation to our own as they are a different country joined by a trade agreement that has kinda evolved into the EU of today.
We don't relly go around saying
"oh but in France the age is x"
"But you don't live in France." you reply
"That is true, but you live in America and so do they." but this line is more accurate.
AFAIK there is no disparity for Alcohol, 21 in every state.

There are countries where the AOC is as low as 13, although legal over there, if you were to go on holiday with family of that age, they should act as if they are working with a higher AOC as they do not live there full time.

[Andara Bledin]

AFAIK there is no disparity for Alcohol, 21 in every state.

That's not because the states agreed that 21 was a good age, but because the federal government threatened to withhold funding if they didn't toe the line.

Also, the statement about not living in X is just as valid for different states of the union as it is for different countries in Europe. Many states are larger than entire countries there, and many people never move from their home state, with some never leaving it at all. As a country, we're not nearly as coherent as other nations, and the assumptions that we are leave most arguments from outside rather uninformed.

[Ginger Tea]

I'm not sure which edit would have been up when you posted, I tried editing a paragraph a few times for clarity.

I am aware that a state is as large as if not larger than a country over here, but as I said, we don't normally care what laws they pass in France as long as they only affect France, it's only when it's EU directives where we take interest (normally in the form of Eff you).

So as a continent I don't give a monkeys about Europe as I only have to worry about the law of the land.
But a continent is not the same as a country taking up about half of another continent, so although it is the United States of America, it is seen as a country not a union of states.

You correctly see Europe as the individual countries themselves, we see states as magnified versions of our counties and part of one larger being, not states akin to countries under a solid union

damn I wrote two paragraphs differently yet almost the sodding same, never mind..