Honor Student Expelled and Charged

[PepperElf]

since the other factors are now moot (they were having sex, and the parents of the victim protested as soon as they found out) i'll just stick with this one...

as for the relationship apeparing to be sincere, what meant was that it appears the relationship is more than just sex.

Sincerity has nothing to do with legality. Or the ability to legally give consent.

That's a sticking point in a lot of cases. Saying "yes" is different than having the legal capacity to give consent.

If it wasn't different, then no one would recognize this man, no?

[Gravekeeper]

Ehhh...this is a messy one. While its illegal to the letter of the law, I don't like the entrapment like circumstances around it and the resulting witch hunt. The other girl's parents waiting till she turned 18 instead of making any attempt to mediate the situation beforehand. The police using the younger girl to make recorded calls to the older girl to snag her. Her being booted off the basketball team for being a lesbian. The red herring of this being a same sex relationship may end up with the girl getting a harsher than needed sentence if this goes to trial.

This is precisely the problem I was talking about in the other thread. They were both legal when they met, but illegal by the time they had progressed to an intimate relationship. So timing is the basis of the issue and the basis of that timing is the younger girl's testimony to the police. A younger girl facing her parent's persecution for her sexuality and pressured by both her parents and the cops to get the older girl.

Also both the judges AND the school administration refused to expel the older girl. It was the parents repeatedly complaining to the school board after not getting their way with the judge and the administration that got her expelled.

Teenagers are going to have sex in high school no matter what anyone says or does. Either the laws need to be adjusted to reflect this or the schools need to be adjusted to avoid the ticking time bomb the laws create. Why not just adjust the middle school > high school grade spread to avoid this completely? If you moved the youngest grade from high school and made it the oldest grade in middle school you'd solve all the problems with the law. -.-

It looks like Anonymous has been roused by this too, so this could get really ugly soon.

[s_stabeler]

I wasn't talking about legality, since it's fairly obviosu it wasn't legal. I'm saying that it looks unlikely that the older girl was just looking for sex. It changes the morality of it. (it doesn't make it right, but if the relationship was genuine, then it is better than if the older girl was just looking for sex)

edit- and much has been made that it's possible that she might not need to go on the sex offenders register. Um, how often has it occured that someone convicted of a sexula crime has not needed to register as a sex offender? not many, as far as I know. She cannot really rely on luck to prevent her life being destroyed for this, when it's arguably unjustified. (felony convictions are a big deal- I imagine she'll have a tough time getting a decent job. Let alone the sex offender's register stuff. I personally would have gone for her pleading Nolo Contendre ( No contest) on the charges, then instead of the house arrest, make it three years probation.The nolo contendre measn there is no felony conviction, meaning the older girl won't end up having her life utterly ruined.

[Andara Bledin]

In order:

Entrapment requires that the other party request that the target break the law. This was a sting, requiring only that the target admit to having broken the law to a trusted party. It's not even entrapment-like.

Next, most reports state that the parents of the girlfriend reported it as soon as they learned of it. The idea that they waited until she turned 18 seems to a narrative that the girl's parents are creating to paint their daughter as a victim unfairly persecuted.

If this does go to trial (honestly, she should take the plea; they're offering third-degree felony with a chance to have the record sealed), any effect resulting from it being a same-sex relationship will most likely be her parents' fault. They're the ones writing that narrative as well.

They weren't legal when they met. As I stated before, any child under 15 is off limits. Period. Even with another 14-year-old. Plus, the age difference is over 3 years, so she was still off-limits at 15.

As for the expulsion: we cannot know for certain that the board wasn't already mulling over this decision. I don't recall reading much about that, and a quick search turned up little that wasn't hearsay from the mother. While it is fact that the judge refused to force the school to do so, we have no way to know whether the board chose to do so because of the parents or because of the charges themselves, which would possibly have been levied without them, as it was the basketball coach who was the catalyst, kicking the older girl off the team and calling the younger's parents to report their relationship to them. For all we know, it was that coach that got the board to expel her. And considering the ruckus that is being raised, it's potentially in the interests of all other students that she not attend the same school, despite the fact that it is a harsh penalty against the girl, herself. It's about more than her, now, and what might be right may merely be "more right" and isn't always fair.

What needs to be adjusted is education. Older kids should be made aware that it doesn't matter how tall a freshman is, or how mature they seem, fooling around with younger kids could lead to dire consequences. Unfortunately, just changing when kids go from one school to the next isn't nearly as easy as passing a decree. There's a lot of money tied up at all levels and it would likely require an entire overhaul of the system in any place that followed that standard, and it would be a stop-gap measure, at best. Education would have far greater long-term benefits beyond just the issue of age of consent.

It is terrible that the coach and the girl's parents are bigots. But that doesn't change the basic facts that she committed a crime and is being held for it.

Anonymous' involvement could be good or bad. The problem is that people are still trying to make this about homosexuality. Other than the decision to report, their sexual preferences continue to have nothing to do with the criminal proceedings. There's a very real probability that the continued cry of "discrimination" will only make the prosecution fight harder to play this by the rules and not offer further deals.

And, in the bid to grab eyeballs, one site is reporting that she was asked to testify in a similar case that was dropped. Only, they omit any actual details that might indicate in which ways that case was similar and, more importantly, in which ways it was not.

[Greenday]

It looks like Anonymous has been roused by this too, so this could get really ugly soon.

I may not like Anon, but they can be quite impressive with this stuff.

Too many things to quote so I won't bother at this point. The difference of three years at those ages is a large gap in maturity. Sure, the 14 year old might have been enjoying it and/or having fun, but how many 14 year olds really understand what really entails with these kinds of relationships? The law is very clear on this one so regardless, the older girl screwed up big time.

It does stink of the younger girl's parents being homophobes and it does seem like they purposely waited until the older girl was 18 so they would treat her as an adult.

Still, she shouldn't get expelled, nor should she be treated like a monster. I don't get the sense of malevolence in this case and it'd seem appropriate to just give her some probation and let it end at that. No sex offenders list.

[Jaden]

I bet the stink was raised because both are female. If it had been a male jock on the football team or something with a younger girl it would have been ok in their eyes.

What universe do you live in where an older male has even something as innocent as a purely platonic relationship with an underage girl and isn't immediately labelled/judged a pedophile by, like, everybody?

[Gravekeeper]

Entrapment requires that the other party request that the target break the law. This was a sting, requiring only that the target admit to having broken the law to a trusted party. It's not even entrapment-like.

I was speaking more towards the possibility that the other girl's parents waited till she was 18. Not the legal definition so much.

Next, most reports state that the parents of the girlfriend reported it as soon as they learned of it. The idea that they waited until she turned 18 seems to a narrative that the girl's parents are creating to paint their daughter as a victim unfairly persecuted.

With the he said she said of the various news reports so far I don't put much more credence yet in what one set of parents said over the other to be honest.

If this does go to trial (honestly, she should take the plea; they're offering third-degree felony with a chance to have the record sealed), any effect resulting from it being a same-sex relationship will most likely be her parents' fault. They're the ones writing that narrative as well.

Agreed, the plea is the best option here. I would be worried that a trial sentence could be unjustly harsh depending on the judge/jury she ends up with.

They weren't legal when they met. As I stated before, any child under 15 is off limits. Period. Even with another 14-year-old. Plus, the age difference is over 3 years, so she was still off-limits at 15.

Really? That seems.....yeah.

As for the expulsion: we cannot know for certain that the board wasn't already mulling over this decision.

She was expelled on an appeal brought to the board after two judges and the school administration decided against it. Prior to that they made several repeated petitions and were denied each time. There was a standing court order to allow her to stay in school.

When you add that to the undercurrent of homophobia going on both within the school and with the girl's parents it doesn't sit right, personally. Both of the scenarios being presented for how the younger girl's parents found out are argh worthy.

If the parents waited till she was 18 to press charges that's kind of a dick move.

If the parents found out because, as they reported themselves, the basketball coach kicked the older girl off the team for being a lesbian and then phoned them and told them their daughter was gay, basically. That's also kind of a dick move.

What needs to be adjusted is education. Older kids should be made aware that it doesn't matter how tall a freshman is, or how mature they seem, fooling around with younger kids could lead to dire consequences.

The problem with this is A) Teenagers are, well, teenagers and B) There are no uniform age of consent laws. There are no age limits in Federal law. Its all state law and thus changes from state to state. Florida has an age of consent of 18. The highest in the US, which it shares with a handful of other states.

As is, their relationship is only illegal because they live in Florida. If they lived in Canada for example, it would be legal. I imagine its likewise legal in some other states. It would also be legal if they were married. Or if they only had sex while outside of the country ( They're legal per Federal extraterritorial laws ).

In fact, under Florida law, if the older girl was an older guy instead and had gotten the younger girl pregnant, they could marry without parental consent and have a legal relationship.

So basically they'd be legal in Florida if they were heterosexual and had made practically every mistake possible. -.-

[Andara Bledin]

The problem with this is A) Teenagers are, well, teenagers and B) There are no uniform age of consent laws.

There's nothing that can be done about the former unless you want to start handing out chastity belts. As for the latter, I don't really see how that's relevant since the education in question would be specific to the state in which the school was located, with the participants necessarily attending the same school. So long as both participants are affected by the same rule, what does it matter if the rule is different the next state over?

Plus, there are only three states in which a 14 year old can give consent. The majority tend to be 16 or older. While Florida has a hard age of 18, in this particular situation, the age of consent is actually 16.

[s_stabeler]

There's nothing that can be done about the former unless you want to start handing out chastity belts. As for the latter, I don't really see how that's relevant since the education in question would be specific to the state in which the school was located, with the participants necessarily attending the same school. So long as both participants are affected by the same rule, what does it matter if the rule is different the next state over?

Plus, there are only three states in which a 14 year old can give consent. The majority tend to be 16 or older. While Florida has a hard age of 18, in this particular situation, the age of consent is actually 16.

teenagers will be teenagers, so why punish them to the same extent as an old pervert? The primary issue people have is that the punishment in the plea deal would still leave the older girl with a ruined life. Yet she's being treated like she is a dangerous sexual predator.

[Gravekeeper]

There's nothing that can be done about the former unless you want to start handing out chastity belts.

Problem being several states would love if they could legally do that. >.>

As for the latter, I don't really see how that's relevant since the education in question would be specific to the state in which the school was located, with the participants necessarily attending the same school. So long as both participants are affected by the same rule, what does it matter if the rule is different the next state over?

You don't see an inherent problem with telling teenagers "Don't do it. Because I said so. It doesn't matter what Timmy and his friends next state over do." and expecting them to listen?

In Canada, this is all Federal law and thus uniform across Canada. The legal upper limit for 14 is 5 years. 2 years for 12-13. But Canadian law also uses three criteria to judge cases: Is it exploitation, is there dependency or is the older party abusing a position of trust. IE a consensual, equal relationship isn't a problem. Thus bypassing this issue completely. Which seems to be what is causing the fundamental rift between us whenever this topic comes up.

In addition, Canadian schools have a grade structure which avoids the rare extremes ( You won't have a 12 year old and an 18 year old going to the same school ).

This is not a problem in my country and there are no problems resulting from the absence of said problem. So from where I stand, you don't have any real basis for arguing for strict consent laws within high school. Because in practice in my country and others, its not an issue.

While in the US, the track record with managing and educating teenagers and sex is pretty bad.

[Andara Bledin]

You don't see an inherent problem with telling teenagers "Don't do it. Because I said so. It doesn't matter what Timmy and his friends next state over do." and expecting them to listen?

If that's what I advocated, we'd have a discussion.

What I did advocate was informing young people of the consent laws in their state. Period. Not whether it's ok or not. Not what any other state legislates. Merely that they be aware of the fact that they can go to jail and have their lives ruined just because they got it on with someone that happened to be below whatever line that particular state drew in the sand.

Whether that line is reasonable is irrelevant. Whether that line is the same as neighboring states, equally so. They won't get out of being prosecute because the law sucked, and they won't get out of being prosecuted because their neighbor states do things differently.

[Gravekeeper]

If that's what I advocated, we'd have a discussion.

What I did advocate was informing young people of the consent laws in their state. Period. Not whether it's ok or not. Not what any other state legislates. Merely that they be aware of the fact that they can go to jail and have their lives ruined just because they got it on with someone that happened to be below whatever line that particular state drew in the sand.

But that's exactly my point. There is a problem with telling teenagers not to do something for what essentially amounts to "Just because". Especially if they can easily compare it to other teenagers who are allowed to do the same thing.

It just doesn't work. Teenagers aren't exactly great at grasping long term consequences. Their brains literally don't work that way yet.

[Andara Bledin]

But that's exactly my point. There is a problem with telling teenagers not to do something for what essentially amounts to "Just because". Especially if they can easily compare it to other teenagers who are allowed to do the same thing.

And that's different from smoking or drinking laws how, exactly? Or drug laws, for that matter.

Kids have been dealing with "but Timmy's mom lets him..." issues for as long as they've had friends. They know by the time they hit high school that not everybody gets to do the same things. "Just because."

Only, in this case, it's not "just because", it's "because the law."

[Ginger Tea]

The differences between state could cause confusion if one lived in a state that was more lax than a state they move to.
Yes they should be informed of the law of the state trumps what the next state over does as it's the next state over, just as I am unaware of most laws and ages within Europe for drinking smoking and sex, (18 16 and 16 last I looked in the UK).

So when a story like this happens on a national or international forum we bring our knowledge of state law into play and if we live in a more relaxed state we see less harm.
Also, hypothetically speaking, say a family lived in one state but for some so close to the boarder reason they go to another states school where their partner lives.
One state you can be 3 years apart another you both have to be 18, if they knew that in one state the age gap is OK enough but another it's not, what if all intercourse happened in the legal/laxer state, but the strict state parents convinced those in authority that it happened that side of the boarder and without checking the school decided to expel.

I know this is not the case for the parties concerned but having different laws for the same thing in one country can confuse the issue.

[Gravekeeper]

And that's different from smoking or drinking laws how, exactly? Or drug laws, for that matter.

Its completely different. All 3 of those have tangible and sometimes immediate downsides as well as long term if not permanent health issues. Which is why smoking and drinking is on the decline among teens. They have a real explanation and consequences behind them that you can actually inform a teenager of.

Two girls getting it on? Not so much.

The worst case scenario for teenage sexual activity is pregnancy or STDs. Both of which are 100% preventable with some rudimentary education ( Education which is far easier to apply than trying to teach teenagers some arbitrary "just because" law ). Both are also risk factors that are present completely regardless of the age spread between two teen participants. The law in no way prevents the risk factors unlike drug, alcohol and smoking laws.