How to get around a loophole!

[fireheart17]

Form your own church/cult!

So the suck is more with the anti-vaccine nuts than the government here, although the government didn't anticipate this.

Basically, new laws have passed which forbid children from being enrolled in daycare centres unless they are fully vaccinated. The exceptions to this are medical (with accompanying letter from your GP or the hospital) and religious. (I know some groups have clashes with it due to moral/dietary reasons, but generally the leaders for those religions have still stated it's OK to have vaccines!)

So the leader of the Anti-Vaccine Network (Australian Vaccine Network) encourages all of her followers to join a sham church created in Queensland in 2008, as a "convenient" creative loophole.

You pay $25 to get around the loophole.

I can foresee a number of daycares now discovering this and refusing. I have a feeling that her "cult" is also another way for her to raise funds....

But it looks like the government is fighting back.

[Ginger Tea]

YMMV, but not all religions are recognised by all countries practiced in.
So although they could say "we have religious exemption" cos they paid $25 to join a cult/church, loophole or not IANAL, the Australian government might not even need to worry about this as if it is not seen as a church it is not, 'Church churchy Churchy McChurchingston of Church' wont get you out of it, no matter how often you have the word Church in the name.

Scientology is not recognised on the whole as a legitimate religion but a cult, those that might see it as a genuine one are probably too far away to matter and probably just said "Yeah ok" cos it's cheaper to say it is than to research if it is.

Edit: I know there was a census stunt to get Jedi listed in numerous countries, but I am not sure what constitutes the formation of a religion other than someone saying they've found a much better doctrine than what is touted by the big 3 Christian groups.

I would find it hard to believe someone was a member of faith X if the only church listed was the other end of the country and they were not former residents, having a thousand followers in Sidney for a church set in a converted outhouse somewhere in the middle of the outback would have me saying "Yeah, no."

Granted I do believe you don't need to be in a church to communicate with god as he's meant to be omnipotent, you should be able to worship to an extent how and where you like, but not in the "let's set up a make shift church in a train station whilst we wait for ours to arrive" more silent prayers etc that no one would know were happening, just some dude sitting contemplating.

[Kheldarson]

I do think that the gov't should be able to kick this out rather quickly. The first article mentions a letter? Read to me like they were forming specifically to get around the law. That would shoot them in foot real quick.

[static]

1234567890

[Ginger Tea]

Scientology is listed as a cult world wide AFAIK, only by countries that don't give a monkeys is it not, I think sometimes it has to be recognised by the Vatican too, not just Christian offshoots but religion in general.
Not sure where I read or heard that, but if it is true, I always found that odd.

[Kheldarson]

Scientology is listed as a cult world wide AFAIK, only by countries that don't give a monkeys is it not, I think sometimes it has to be recognised by the Vatican too, not just Christian offshoots but religion in general.
Not sure where I read or heard that, but if it is true, I always found that odd.

A religion does not have to be recognized by the Vatican. That's just silly.

But the Vatican does have some rules about what groups they view as being other religions and how they differentiate from cults, which are helpful. One of which being completely open to the public in terms of doctrine (hence why Scientology, Mormonism, and Jehovah's Witnesses are all under the cult label by the Church. But I think Mormonism is moving out of that category).

Other things the Church looks at is whether it is free to join said group. This "church" wouldn't qualify under that.

[fireheart17]

I do think that the gov't should be able to kick this out rather quickly. The first article mentions a letter? Read to me like they were forming specifically to get around the law. That would shoot them in foot real quick.

The government is reporting the Australian vaccination network to a regulatory body. The church actually has been around since 2008, but was located up in Queensland and very small. The letter I think was more of a taunt.
To get tax-exempt status, they need to fit all these criteria in order to qualify (if they aren't a charity but are an NPO) or they need to be endorsed by the ATO (taxman and only if you are registered as a charity). In this case, I suspect they are the latter, but they are required by law to show this. The government can also decide tax exempt status and Scientology is also not a tax exempt religion.

Does this "Church" give reasons why it's anti-vaccine? I don't know of any religions where that's the official stance. Even the Taliban are on board with vaccination now.

Edit: Ginger Tea, that reminds me- does this new cult not need to be officially recognized as a religion first? In Ireland, Scientology has been denied official status as a religion because members need to pay to join. That also means they're not tax-exempt.

Basically, their view stems from the whole "your body is a sacred space" and even rejects vaccination of animals as well as adult humans (now THAT is new to me given that most anti vaccine nuts have issues with childhood ones).

You are correct though, there is no religion where that's an official stance. Hell, even the Catholic Church allows vaccines that were cultivated from 50-year-old aborted foetuses, but would like to see an alternative.

[Panacea]

Edit: Ginger Tea, that reminds me- does this new cult not need to be officially recognized as a religion first? In Ireland, Scientology has been denied official status as a religion because members need to pay to join. That also means they're not tax-exempt.

In the US Scientology IS tax exempt and considered a religion. YMMV.

Scientology is listed as a cult world wide AFAIK, only by countries that don't give a monkeys is it not, I think sometimes it has to be recognised by the Vatican too, not just Christian offshoots but religion in general.
Not sure where I read or heard that, but if it is true, I always found that odd.

It depends on who you talk to. Scientology is recognized as a religion in the US and is tax exempt. That's why the FDA can't regulate the gadgets they peddle (and why they reorganized as a church; originally Scientology claimed the gadget was for mental health purposes, which brought it under the auspices of the FDA).

The Vatican does not have to recognize anyone else's religion to be classified as one. However, the Vatican does teach that some faiths are cults, and that certain other faiths are not (as they claim) Christianity. For example, the Roman Catholic Church does not recognize any faith as Christian that denies the divinity of Christ (Jehovah's Witnesses) or the Holy Trinity (Mormons).


This "church" could probably get away with the loophole in the US. The US government does not get involved in verifying the bone fides of a faith unless they apply for tax exempt status. There have been cases where parents who were not religious or even atheist blatantly claimed the religious exemption to get out of vaccinating their kids. Governments don't want to get mixed up in First Amendment fights.

[fireheart17]

This "church" could probably get away with the loophole in the US. The US government does not get involved in verifying the bone fides of a faith unless they apply for tax exempt status. There have been cases where parents who were not religious or even atheist blatantly claimed the religious exemption to get out of vaccinating their kids. Governments don't want to get mixed up in First Amendment fights.

The only rule regarding religion in Australia is aside from the common-sense ones, is that no one religion shall be treated higher than the others (ie a "state' religion). The preachers I've mentioned previously tried to use said ruling to justify their right to preach in Rundle Mall, which did not get far. (Part of their claim included how other folks were able to hand out Bibles and whatnot in the mall. Those guys are covered under different criteria)

In this case, the rule may more likely be covered under the discrimination laws for NSW. Generally if something like this occurs, a meeting is held to determine if the claim can be justified or not (example: a drug addict claiming his addiction is a disability. Can't remember what happened with that one, but I think they settled out of court with the employer paying a small settlement).

I suspect they'll close the loophole and the "church" or the AVN are going to start dragging them through court.

[Gravekeeper]

"Australian Vaccine Network"

Well, I guess that is snappier than "Polio Appreciation Society"

[fireheart17]

"Australian Vaccine Network"

Well, I guess that is snappier than "Polio Appreciation Society"

Actually it was originally the Anti-Vaccine network.

They've been in trouble once or twice for tax-related screwups.

It's also the reason why I no longer shop at a store that has some REALLY nice art supplies. (they help fund the AVN)

In a very bizarre twist, I haven't actually heard of anyone claiming anthroposophy as a "religion" when entering their children into daycare/school. Anthroposophy is basically the underlying philosophy behind Steiner education and while it's not exactly a religion (they do in fact make it very clear), there are some elements of cult-esque behaviour.