is the gay rights movement selfish?

[smileyeagle1021]

OK, so when I'm in the mood for a flame war rather than an honest debate I'll go to the SL Trib online forum... today I read a comment on there along the lines of "gays are the most selfish people on the planet, they want to silence my voice, they are intolerant of my religion" etc.

So honest question, is the gay rights movement everything these people are saying, selfish, intolerant, etc?

[Rapscallion]

If someone wants to claim that, they need to provide the evidence.

Did they?

Rapscallion

[BlaqueKatt]

So honest question, is the gay rights movement everything these people are saying, selfish, intolerant, etc?

Was the civil rights movement?

They just want equality, the ability to marry and adopt or have children, just like everyone else. I don't see that as selfish or intolerant in any way.

[smileyeagle1021]

Did they?

Rapscallion

we're talking about SL Trib not a reputable site like Fratching of course they didn't have any evidence... other than personal feelings (which I was discussing with Pedersen yesterday is about all this issue could be based on).

[Greenday]

Was the civil rights movement?

Damnit, I was going to point that out when I read the thread title. I see no differences between the two movements.

[Sylvia727]

Well...there are individuals associated with gay rights who are arrogant, rude, boarish, hateful, patronizing, holier-than-thou, condescending, and just plain mean. They claim discrimination, which if one boils down the florid prose amounts to mild bullying, as if they were martyrs on par with lynch victims. They state flat out that anyone who disagrees with them is stupid, evil, or both. Their agenda promotes discrimination up to and including eliminating the opposite sex entirely. These are the sorts of people that homophobes (or heterosexists, if you prefer) can point to and say, "Now there's a fag/dyke!"

Fortunately, these people are far and few between. The gay rights movement (in my experience) is overwhelmingly populated with decent people who aren't looking to cause problems, but to correct them. Some of them are overzealous. I find the word "breeder" spoken in a contemptuous voice to be just as discriminatory as the word "fairy" spoken contemptuously. But the vast majority are selfless people, or people who just want what's due to them.

Perhaps, the question is "is the movement itself selfish"? By focusing only on gay rights, are the members ignoring rights for oppressed minorities, or for the handicapped, or for the displaced/homeless, or whatever else? I don't think it's that, either. Focusing on a single problem is a much more effective way to solve it than to try to focus on all the problems at once. Gay rights groups are more often than not willing to partner with another advocacy group to sponsor some event, or to promote awareness.

[Devilboy]

To paraphrase Dennis Miller, I refuse to treat anyone like a Fabergé egg because they feel they are 'different' from someone else.
Nothing matters... not their race, religion, gender, age, handicap and yes, even sexual preference.

We're all human beings.
I will treat all human beings with exactly the same amount of decency, courtesy and civility they treat me with.

If a group feels that they need a rally, protest, sit-in, march, parade, "awareness" program, bake sale, car wash,...etc. to help their agenda, then that is their business.
Personally, I feel that those sorts of things are, more often than not, irrelevant and unnecessary.
If anything, those events often (IMHO) draw more negative attention than positive because the protesters do nothing more than sling barbs against their oppressors. It ends up as reverse-prejudice which only gives the prejudiced more fodder for their cannons.

[smileyeagle1021]

Well...there are individuals associated with gay rights who are arrogant, rude, boarish, hateful, patronizing, holier-than-thou, condescending, and just plain mean. They claim discrimination, which if one boils down the florid prose amounts to mild bullying, as if they were martyrs on par with lynch victims. They state flat out that anyone who disagrees with them is stupid, evil, or both. Their agenda promotes discrimination up to and including eliminating the opposite sex entirely.

oh I know someone like that... and I hate him just as much as the homophobes hate him. Especially when he says he's the way he is to help the cause. I understand being bitter, I'll admit I have a certain level of bitterness... joining a church that under its leadership at the time said that being gay is a problem but with prayer and obedience you can overcome it, something that at the time I desperately wanted because for 19 years I had heard my mother talk about how much she was looking forward to me eventually marrying having kids and having the family she was never able to have because my father died when I was 5, then 2 years later having a change in leadership that changed their attitude to, "you're going to hell, you are vile, we need to make sure you don't infect the other members... you may stay as long as you don't even so much of think of the word gay unless it's in the same sentence as the words vile and disgusting and you don't use the word 'not' " will do that to you... however, I don't let my bitterness define me.

[AFPheonix]

To paraphrase Dennis Miller, I refuse to treat anyone like a Fabergé egg because they feel they are 'different' from someone else.
Nothing matters... not their race, religion, gender, age, handicap and yes, even sexual preference.

We're all human beings.
I will treat all human beings with exactly the same amount of decency, courtesy and civility they treat me with.

If a group feels that they need a rally, protest, sit-in, march, parade, "awareness" program, bake sale, car wash,...etc. to help their agenda, then that is their business.
Personally, I feel that those sorts of things are, more often than not, irrelevant and unnecessary.
If anything, those events often (IMHO) draw more negative attention than positive because the protesters do nothing more than sling barbs against their oppressors. It ends up as reverse-prejudice which only gives the prejudiced more fodder for their cannons.

I'm glad that you are able to treat people even-handedly that way. Unfortunately, not everyone is able to, evidenced by the fact that most states in this union won't even recognize a a gay couple's right to marriage and equal treatment under the law. It wasn't all that long ago that states were putting forth measures to try and allow gays to be fired simply for being gay. I remember a measure just like that in my state when I was in Junior High. While we've come a ways past that, there will still be many marches made and protests held until equality is reached.

[DrT]

If a group feels that they need a rally, protest, sit-in, march, parade, "awareness" program, bake sale, car wash,...etc. to help their agenda, then that is their business.
Personally, I feel that those sorts of things are, more often than not, irrelevant and unnecessary.
If anything, those events often (IMHO) draw more negative attention than positive because the protesters do nothing more than sling barbs against their oppressors. It ends up as reverse-prejudice which only gives the prejudiced more fodder for their cannons.

Well, the thing is: the majority of said manifestations do not indeed profit anyone.
Now you have the counterweight this with:
But the minority of them changed history.

They are the reason we have paid vacation. civil rights. justice courts.
The reasons we don't have kings anymore, and the reason why a person born in a farm can become president.


Regarding selfishness, well it's the appearence they give. Of course blocking 5 major avenues with a marching protest will be a selfish action to all the people trying to get through the city.
But the legislative doors said march might open are worth it. Let's face it: in human society, common sense and fairness is not the rule. To get it, you have to fight. And when you fight, you appear selfish. You have to, otherwise as said above: you can't focus on your one issue, and your fight is lost.

[Rapscallion]

While we've come a ways past that, there will still be many marches made and protests held until equality is reached.

Mmm - who will decide when equality is reached?

I can see some obvious things that need doing, but once gay marriage etc is obtained as a right, as well as other things I would describe as reasonable rights, when do we start seeing CS posts about someone playing 'the gay card'?

Rapscallion

[smileyeagle1021]

when do we start seeing CS posts about someone playing 'the gay card'?

Rapscallion

umm, I've already seen that card played... I used to have a roommate who played it all the *censored* time. So I'm kinda surprised we haven't seen a post about that yet. There are entitlement whores in every single group (despite our best efforts to get rid of them )

[Slytovhand]

Firstly - Smiley... flame, burn, flame, fire, hell and brimstone... barbeque... get out the marshmallows.

(didn't you say you were in the mood for a good flaming??)

Anyway, I am reminded of a comedian I saw on comedy channel. He intro'd a joke he told, and got heckled with "that's racist, you jewish prick" ... love the irony! (so did he, for that matter).

So - the problem isn't really gayness, or any other -ness, it's humanity hasn't yet learnt to wake up to itself. 100,000 years, and we're still acting like animals - fight, flight, and.... and if you can't do one, then you'll try to do one of the other 2.

[AFPheonix]

Mmm - who will decide when equality is reached?

I can see some obvious things that need doing, but once gay marriage etc is obtained as a right, as well as other things I would describe as reasonable rights, when do we start seeing CS posts about someone playing 'the gay card'?

Rapscallion

Blind justice does. When all people, regardless of gender, creed, color, and any other descriptor that you can think of, are able to be treated equally.
Of course, as soon as gays get that status, there will be someone else who will need it. I suspect muslims will be the next batch to have to go through the same bother.

[Rapscallion]

A reasonable perspective, but who will be the jury to say such has been reached?

Rapscallion