Date Rape manual gets funded on Kickstarter

[Hyena Dandy]

http://www.kickstarter.com/blog/we-were-wrong

Kickstarter agrees they made a mistake.

[Andara Bledin]

My earlier posts were based on the abstract of writing a how-to book advising people to do illegal things.
This post is based on actually having read the work in question.

I'm not sure the book being targeted is what the people who decry it say it is. I've read most of what was posted to Reddit and while someone could use it to be a creep, it appears the author wants his readers to learn how to steer through that channel between Friend Zone and Creepy Perv while becoming more extroverted and confident.

Link to Part 0 of Above the Game

The most objectionable part is 7, called Physical Escalation and Sex. So there's no surprise, really, that it gives advice on escalating physical attention towards the goal of there being sex. The whole "put her hand on your dick" bit is from here, and it's supposed to happen after there's been a whole lot of making out going on (it starts at Kissing, moves to Fondling [which apparently goes up to and including getting her naked and giving her a handjob], comments about Sounds, then goes to Sex). It's worth noting that before it gets into any of that there's a section about resistance and that if she says no, to back off. It goes on to say that you should try again later, but that your goal is to get her to be comfortable with you doing things, not to do things despite her discomfort.

There is a lot of advice on physical contact throughout the whole thing, with some of it being in part 5, which centers on flirting.

Honestly, other than the "alpha male, be the one in charge" stuff, it's not really bad advice overall. And even the "be in charge" stuff is tempered with "pick your battles, let her control some things, too" commentary in part 8, which is Relationships. Pick up artists and date rapists aren't interested in relationships.

Article at Crowd Fund Insider with response by Hoinsky about how his work was being mischaracterized, and I have to agree that he was the target of a witch hunt. The book can certainly be objected to, but not for the reasons given.

[Nekojin]

I don't think that Kickstarter made a mistake in the first place - it's bad business practice to pull a listing on a knee-jerk reaction. Two hours is not enough time to make an informed decision. I think the backpedaling is a reaction to the enormous internet outrage (which, itself, is somewhat misguided). Read the comments below Kickstarter's apology - plenty of scary people on both sides of the matter. =>_<=

That said, I do still think that The Game is a guide for sexual predators, and it's likely that Beyond the Game was going to be more of the same. There are large quotations from the first book that support this, such as the following:

“All the greatest seducers in history could not keep their hands off of women. They aggressively escalated physically with every woman they were flirting with. They began touching them immediately, kept great body language and eye contact, and were shameless in their physicality. Even when a girl rejects your advances, she KNOWS that you desire her. That’s hot. It arouses her physically and psychologically.”

He's talking about moving from flirtations to physical contact quickly, and to assume that a rejection is only temporary. Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing that as just a guide on being confident in dating.

[Andara Bledin]

First, The Game, the original book, is written by someone else entirely and was autobiographical in nature. It wasn't a how-to book at all; it was an accounting of one man's experience becoming a pick up artist.

Beyond the Game, on the other hand, while it outlines how one might become a pick up artist also gives advice on how to build and sustain real relationships. Part 1 includes this note: "You understand the fundamental truth that women don't want to be the adventure - they want to be taken on an adventure by an attractive man." For pick up artists, the woman is the adventure.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Well I'm glad someone has read it because frankly my red flag was up the second I was seeing passages out of context. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they couldn't have been written in the negative light people were suggesting. It just seemed like an inordinately stupid thing to write and the blogs that I saw reporting on it have a history of being really fast and loose with the facts.

For me, what's sad is if the manual isn't what it was reported to be by the sites that are outraged, then Kickstarter basically just let shoddy journalism form its opinion.

[Nekojin]

I do owe everyone here an apology for the factually inaccurate details in the OP and subsequent posts. I'm still reserving judgment on the matter, however.

[Andara Bledin]

All things considered, Kickstarter likely has no idea what the book is really about. All they have are the words of people who, quite simply, are being disingenuous to downright dishonest. Their reaction was really the only one they could take: let it complete and comment based on what they knew, which was the allegation of it being "a date rape manual."

Not a single article I spotted mentioned that you could check it out on Reddit. Hell, none of them even linked to the Kickstarter campaign, despite it being completed well before most of them even jumped on the rage-machine bandwagon.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Honestly Nekojin, I don't blame you at all as you pretty much posted what was available at the time. Every site that ran this story ran it with a very specific slant. Seriously, I've seen no shortage (not just on the link you posted) of people calling the author a date rapist, a rape enabler, or all manner of names that are just flatly unsubstantiated ad hominems if that's not what the author was writing. That doesn't even get into how unconscionable the use of those terms are in an article where the people reporting haven't bothered researching the topic.

Just about the only way to really argue against it would be to read the thing, and when I read the articles, I didn't really feel the need/desire to read the source. I still don't. This story won't get any more interesting unless the author is able to sue for libel in some way (in which case facts are being challenged legally) but he didn't sustain any damages as near as I can tell. So it's mostly just internet shaming. I don't think legally you can sue for that although I could be wrong. Considering this is not the first time I've seen some of these sites shame while playing extremely fast and loose with the facts, honestly I wouldn't mind seeing how courts would look at it.

[violiav]

Honestly what I've read I don't find terriblely offensive. I mean, when I'm in an intimate situation I don't really expect (or want) to be asked "may I caress your breast?" or "can you hold my penis?"
Of course all comments I read on The Mary Sue were calling for this guys balls on a plate. But from what I've been able to tell it was somewhat intended to give guys confidence. Yeah, still a tad douchie, but not teh ebil.