"Does not approve" /=/ "hates" ? (kind of a rant)

[MystyGlyttyr]

This is what I get for getting dragged into a debate when I don't want to talk...

Without getting into the entire long backstory, here's the question...all right, look. I do not approve of unnecessary abortion unless it is absolutely necessary. I do not approve of pre-marital sex. And I do not approve of 99% of teenage weddings. And I ended up discussing it with someone. There, that's the premise.

Now, having said that, some human I was talking to online has taken this to mean that I am some kind of inhuman beast. I can't lie and say I approve of something when I DON'T. But the thing is, just because I don't approve of it doesn't mean I don't accept it. I wish it didn't exist, I can't lie about that. But it does, I'm in the minority on my opinions, and so, I can either turn into a raving foaming psycho and go trying to bend the majority to my will, or I can just accept that and go on with my life. I choose to just move on with it. I'm not about to go trying to take away what people think are their rights, no matter how much I don't like their choices.

But when I tell people I don't approve of whatever, they automatically leap to the conclusion that that means I hate and disparage anyone who feels otherwise AND I DON'T! I mean, God, I don't approve of my sister's haircolor but that doesn't mean I hate her and everyone who buys that particular brand of Feria! Why is the concept so hard? South Park had it...just because you tolerate something doesn't mean it can't piss you off! It's just in reverse!

So, what do you guys think? Am I totally off base or what?

[Saydrah]

I do not approve of unnecessary abortion unless it is absolutely necessary.

When is unnecessary abortion necessary?

I'm sorry, I had to. You work at a newspaper, you understand, right?

I think you're in the right here. Some people take such absolute positions on issues like that, so it seems like it's a really unusual thing to have enough common sense to accept things you don't like but can't really change. I mean, even though the Bible says, "Love the sinner, hate the sin," the religious right is some of the worst offenders on this: They ostracize their own children for being gay, rather than accepting them. Then again, sometimes the people being disapproved of are just as at fault for the perception that disapprove = hate. It is hard to accept that someone loves you but disapproves of something central to your life, so people tend to make ultimatums like, "If you love me, you'll accept _______!" When really, humans are more complex than that.

[MystyGlyttyr]

When is unnecessary abortion necessary?

I'm sorry, I had to. You work at a newspaper, you understand, right?

I think you're in the right here. Some people take such absolute positions on issues like that, so it seems like it's a really unusual thing to have enough common sense to accept things you don't like but can't really change. I mean, even though the Bible says, "Love the sinner, hate the sin," the religious right is some of the worst offenders on this: They ostracize their own children for being gay, rather than accepting them. Then again, sometimes the people being disapproved of are just as at fault for the perception that disapprove = hate. It is hard to accept that someone loves you but disapproves of something central to your life, so people tend to make ultimatums like, "If you love me, you'll accept _______!" When really, humans are more complex than that.

Yes, I know, but I am not a proofreader. I jest types its und goeses. *snerk*

It's just people seem so set that it has to be one or the other. It almost turns into some kind of Who's On First thing. "So you hate me?" "No." "Then you support it." "No." "But if you don't support it, how can you not hate me?" "Because YOU don't bother me, the action does." "But the action is something I do." Etc., etc., etc.

WHY can't it be both? Why can I not support my brother even if I don't approve of his getting his girlfriend pregnant and throwing together a wedding? Or be there for a friend if she decides she has to have an abortion even if I think it's the wrong choice? Or...WHATEVER.

[Rapscallion]

I think this is a case of the fanatics. There are people who think it's perfectly acceptable to burn abortion clinics or kill doctors who perform the procedure. Likewise, there are the extremes on the other fringe.

That's the sort you spoke to. The problem is that they see things in black at white - tribally in the 'with me' or 'against me' clan. Neither type can accept that there are other views that agree or disagree to a certain extent, but not to the extent that they do and are willing to accept the situation. It's like two warring kings in their forts on opposite sides of the valley and the poor bloody peasants trapped between two armies.

Rapscallion

[Sylvia727]

I know exactly what you mean; I've been on the wrong side of that conversation too many times. I've learned not to express unpopular opinions around certain people unless I'm in the mood for a circular argument or a lecture on why BehaviorA is godly/righteous and BehaviorB is evil/malicious. Some people just couldn't catch a clue if you tied them to it with 200-lb. fishing line.

[Amethyst Hunter]

It may be that the other side has had a run-in with the kind of people who ARE haters, and that has colored their perception of everyone who holds similar views. So they react defensively thinking that "here's someone else who might attack (figuratively or literally speaking) me for X or Y factors."

For example, it has been VERY hard for me for the past 8 years (if not longer) not to tar every Christian/Bush-supporter with the same brush, because I have met too many people who are exactly the kinds of fanatical hatefuls that give both Christianity and conservatism a bad reputation. I hear "Christian" and I automatically have a suspicious reflex that makes me want to examine the source for possible dominionism/fascism at work. (And yes, I do blame the past 8 years and certain people's actions for this mindset) It makes me wonder if those people would do the kinds of things that the haters do (harassment, ostracizing, even outright violence, etc.). Intellectually I know that the sane conservatives likely would not. But gut feelings are a whole 'nother bag of worms, as I'm sure you might think, and it's those emotions that cloud judgment on any side regardless of the topic at hand.

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Flyndaran]

There are some beliefs that I cannot tolerate. If the OP's partial anti-abortionist stance would affect his voting practices, then I would not make a fuss. But I also wouldn't be his friend.

Is everyone really upset about the heartfelt beliefs or the jackassery of confrontational nitwits when shaken from their isolated "everyone believes the same as I" mentality?

[powerboy]

For most people, it just boils on down too, "What I think, is going to be right, no matter what others think." While others are actually accepts that other people has their own opinions. For me, if I like or hate something...then that is based on different things. I am all for pro-life. I do not believe in abortion. If you do not want the child, then their is a family out there that will take him/her in as their own. But am I going to protest about it? NO. I accept that people has thought about it and made the right decision for them. It is their life, not mine

[Flyndaran]

...NO. I accept that people has thought about it and made the right decision for them. It is their life, not mine

That's pretty much the definition of pro-choice. You are for others making the choice that best suits them regardless of what you would do in your own.

[DrT]

That's pretty much the definition of pro-choice. You are for others making the choice that best suits them regardless of what you would do in your own.

And that exacty underlines the issue highlighted with this thread: if people don't see you as part of their clan, you're in the other one, no in-between.

Hence my hatred of what I call 'tagging': the tendency people have of tagging you for one line of though or the next; after listening to very few of your arguments and forgetting most of them. By tagging you in a clan, they group you with the bunch of morons that gives that clan a bad name, and you get a shower of insults and other sillinesses which the morons deserve, but you don't.
I can't stand it. I try very hard to keep my mind open as much as possible and restrict my tagging practice to a minimum, it simply narrows your mind to oblivion otherwise.

For instance telling him it's the pro-choice view puts him together with pro-abortion people, of which he's not part. Indeed he favors the choice, but the 'pro-choice' tag doesn't contain his disagreement with the practice of abortion. And that disagreement seems quite important to him.

Anyawy, I will admit that tagging is a very effective way to win an argument, particularly if the person being tagged doesn't have the patience to roll with the blow. I've been called racist, nazi, antisemitist.... if you react violently to the tag, you're it. If you roll with it, deconstruct the other's bullshit to the core, you aint.
It takes time, though, and sometimes you just don't want to give a damn.

[Flyndaran]

Only lunatics are pro-abortion. Abortions are at best necessary "evils" in that any invasive surgery to remove a potential human is traumatizing. Trusting the women with their choice that that outcome is less traumatizing than continuing with pregnancies is pro-choice.

I see the spectrum, but honestly it boils down to a do you trust women to make choices about their own bodies when it involves fetuses but not post 4-5 month gestation babies.
If you do, then you are pro-choice. If not, then you are anti-choice.

On each side there are shades of perspective, but they are usually much less volitile to discus with members on the same side.

Damn few things in life are truly black and white, except of course for the two categories of those of us that see the world as black and white and those of us that don't.

[BookstoreEscapee]

"But the action is something I do."

Well, my ex used to leave his socks on the floor and I hated that too. Guess I really hated him...who knew?

That's pretty much the definition of pro-choice. You are for others making the choice that best suits them regardless of what you would do in your own.

Just had to quote that one. So many people (at least on the internet) think "pro-choice" means "everyone should have an abortion." I am very much pro-choice, but in a perfect world, no one would need to have one. "Safe, legal and rare."

This whole disagree/hate argument shows up in every thread I read about religion, homosexuality, or evolution (the latter two of which always come down to a religious argument anyway). And the people who so often accuse others of "hating" are often the ones making some of the most hateful-sounding comments. On both sides. (For the record, I'm not referring to Fratching, as I don't come here very often; I do read a lot of fark.com and abcnews.com message boards, though I do not post on either of them.) I read them because frankly, the circular arguments tend to amuse me.

[vanima]

Only lunatics are pro-abortion. Abortions are at best necessary "evils" in that any invasive surgery to remove a potential human is traumatizing. Trusting the women with their choice that that outcome is less traumatizing than continuing with pregnancies is pro-choice.

I see the spectrum, but honestly it boils down to a do you trust women to make choices about their own bodies when it involves fetuses but not post 4-5 month gestation babies.
If you do, then you are pro-choice. If not, then you are anti-choice.

On each side there are shades of perspective, but they are usually much less volitile to discus with members on the same side.

Damn few things in life are truly black and white, except of course for the two categories of those of us that see the world as black and white and those of us that don't.

calling pro-abortion people lunatics is kinda loony itself... just sayin
but whatever

I am very much pro choice.. i have not had one but there are reasons i would.. anyone who tries to take the choice from me on what i do with my body can kiss my fat ass

[Slytovhand]

Mysty, doing the whole disagree = hate is a logical fallacy. Of course, it won't make a hell of a difference to them because they aren't really interested in logic, but you could try bringing it up. And fallacies 'work' because they take away from the person's argument and sideline it (if you fall for it).

BSE - no, you won't find too many of these type of ppl on Fratching. They wouldn't last long - either from the mods booting them, or from the rest of us ripping their (lack of) arguments to shreds

so, I can either turn into a raving foaming psycho

Turn into??? Nah, we figured you already were

[Rapscallion]

anyone who tries to take the choice from me on what i do with my body can kiss my fat ass

So, what do I get to do if I don't try to take the choice from you?

Rapscallion