Premarital sex: bad or good? Or neither?

[Slytovhand]

Flyn...

Majority rule doesn't apply to facts.

certainly didn't help your case for 'misinterpreting' you...

Btw - have you read any Joseph Campbell? How about Jung? They both do into the idea of ceremony and ritual in our lives - not so meaningless.

[Evandril]

Assuming that the last post was directed at me... I wish everyone would stop misinterpreting me.
I don't have a problem with marriage anymore than I have a problem with any other ceremony.
I just don't understand secular humanist types finding marriage ceremonies so important.
Taking out the no X before marriage, and taking out the promise before your deity, then I simply don't see anything else but banal legalities.

Enjoy what you enjoy. I just don't get it.
I have no animosity towards even the most unusual ceremonies or those that seem so vested in performing in them.

I... just... don't... get... it.
I'm sorry that so many seemed to take offense by misinterpreting my intentions.

The big deal is you are publicly declaring your intent to remain with this person for the rest of your lives...and to most, that means quite a bit. The public decleration is highly significant to most...without it, they feel like they can leave at any time. And the legal difficulty of a divorce are no small matter, as well. Most people care, greatly, about what others think of them, and the ceremony of marriage tends to be a public 'step' towards accepting responsibility, if that makes sense.

Personally, I feel the idea of a 'handfasting' would be something *VERY* good for today's society, a marriage lasting a year and a day.

[Flyndaran]

The big deal is you are publicly declaring your intent to remain with this person for the rest of your lives...and to most, that means quite a bit. The public decleration is highly significant to most...without it, they feel like they can leave at any time. And the legal difficulty of a divorce are no small matter, as well. Most people care, greatly, about what others think of them, and the ceremony of marriage tends to be a public 'step' towards accepting responsibility, if that makes sense.

Personally, I feel the idea of a 'handfasting' would be something *VERY* good for today's society, a marriage lasting a year and a day.

I would prefer that the religious concept of marriage get out of my supposed secular government.

I have already stated my intentions to remain with my Tonya for the rest of my life., and she I. People get divorced, so declarations aren't predictions, no matter how much we want them to be.

The concept doesn't fit in my brain. It's probably because of my non-social core. I'm not anti-social in that I despise people. I just don't need the vast majority of humanity and interaction with them or need their forceless approval at all. Fortunately Tonya feels the same, though she like to visit with friends far more often than I do.... But then I only see my best/only friend once a month or so.

I don't like the concept of your year long marriages. It's insulting. It's saying that yes we know you WANT to stay together forever at this moment, but we know that you may be wrong. Most would say, "Screw you. I know my own mind and heart better than you." And many of them would be right and resent your accusation.

Also, what's wrong with no fault divorce? We have that in Oregon, U.S.A. where we aren't even a community property state. You take out what you put in, and go your separate ways without any legality issues making it more of a pain that it already is.
If for some impossible reason(s) I and Tonya feel the need to break up, then we would be adults and not make a scene. (That sentence was amazingly hard to write.) My love, or even the memory of it, is FAR too strong to ever hurt or wish her hurt because of what must be an inevitable break up.

[anriana]

I don't like the concept of your year long marriages. It's insulting. It's saying that yes we know you WANT to stay together forever at this moment, but we know that you may be wrong. Most would say, "Screw you. I know my own mind and heart better than you." And many of them would be right and resent your accusation.

Handfasting doesn't replace lifelong marriages. It's used as an optional engagement period. How does having an option insult you?

[Saydrah]

I haven't replied to this topic yet, so I'm going to answer the question in the OP instead of giving an opinion on handfasting... well, okay, I lied, my opinion on handfasting is, whatever works for you, go for it.

Anyway, on the original topic: I think the value of premarital sex directly correlates to the value you place on sex in general. If you don't have a very high sex drive and other types of compatibility are more important to both you AND your partner, it's not necessary to have premarital sex. But if you think sex is a very important part of a marital relationship, it's just silly to presume you'll be sexually compatible with someone without giving it a try first.

Also, sex is a spectrum, not a single act, so the idea of virginity is just not a valid one in my eyes. What's the difference, really, between a person who has had penetrative sex and one who hasn't? Why is that the defining moment that makes someone no longer a virgin bride? What about other types of human sexual behavior? If penetrative sex is the way you lose your virginity, are lesbians virgins for life? There's no instant where someone goes from virgin to non-virgin, unless they are raped before they're sexually mature-- although I would possibly argue that rape isn't a loss of virginity, since rape isn't sex. But the point is, from just before puberty to adulthood and possibly marriage, people gradually grow and develop as sexual beings.

You could say penis-in-vagina sex is more affecting physically and mentally than kissing or other types of sex, therefore that's the point at which you lose virginity-- but then, do you lose another virginity if you have an even more intense sexual experience? Some people describe experiences with BDSM as transformative and incredibly intense, even if they don't include penetration or orgasm.

Virginity is a silly concept, and saving it for marriage even if you think sexual compatibility could affect the success of your marriage is even sillier.

[Evandril]

The concept doesn't fit in my brain. It's probably because of my non-social core. I'm not anti-social in that I despise people. I just don't need the vast majority of humanity and interaction with them or need their forceless approval at all. Fortunately Tonya feels the same, though she like to visit with friends far more often than I do.... But then I only see my best/only friend once a month or so. .

Was just trying to 'translate' for you, get it slightly closer to concepts you'd understand...Most people do NOT feel the same way you do, and the acceptance of society as a whole is VERY important to them.

I don't like the concept of your year long marriages. It's insulting. It's saying that yes we know you WANT to stay together forever at this moment, but we know that you may be wrong. Most would say, "Screw you. I know my own mind and heart better than you." And many of them would be right and resent your accusation.

It wouldn't be a replacement for marriage, but would be something people could use to see how compatible they are, and give them a year together as a married couple to see how they work together. At the end of that year, they can choose to try another year, go their seperate ways, or decide to stick together for the long term. Or, of course, you could just get the normal " 'til death do we part" ceremony, but it would give you another option. I *do* know I've yet to see anyone choose a handfasting treat it as lightly as the majority seem to do with 'normal' marriages....even the ones that split after their year.

[Flyndaran]

Was just trying to 'translate' for you, get it slightly closer to concepts you'd understand...Most people do NOT feel the same way you do, and the acceptance of society as a whole is VERY important to them.

Yeah. I understand all that intellectually. I'm an odd duck, even for my odd duck immediate family. How much of it is an outgrowth of my late childhood on severe anxiety and social phobia cannot ever be known. But I think that I'm innately non-social. I would be able to cope if I and my life mate were the only humans left cared for by aliens.
We call ourselves goats to all the human sheep. I don't mean that label entirely in the harsh way it reads. It's just that people will natrually follow out of habit, herd/pack beahavior, laziness, and trust of others' judgement in times of stress and exhaustion.
I don't. I never follow even a large group of others doing something if I can't figure out the reason on my own.
It allows me a unique perspective and individual thinking, but it might get me killed in a fire or stand out as odd and cause problems that way.

Itwouldn't be a replacement for marriage, but would be something people could use to see how compatible they are, and give them a year together as a married couple to see how they work together. At the end of that year, they can choose to try another year, go their seperate ways, or decide to stick together for the long term. Or, of course, you could just get the normal " 'til death do we part" ceremony, but it would give you another option. I *do* know I've yet to see anyone choose a handfasting treat it as lightly as the majority seem to do with 'normal' marriages....even the ones that split after their year.

I just don't see the problem with marriage and if/when things don't work out as planned, a divorce. The problem is the lack of no fault divorces in many states and and nations rather than marriage assumed to be permanent.

What happens if one person is injured, incapabe of informed consent, but the time limit on their marriage runs out while in a coma or some such? The healthy partner becomes a non-relative and the nasty next of kin makes all the decisions despite the non-spouse knowing that that isn't what the victim would want?

[Slytovhand]

Mr Duck-goat, the Handfasting is a tradition that has been around for a long time, and is still practiced by some religions (I've been at a couple as a 'witness' and invited to others). As suggested by Evandril, yes, they are taken quite seriously by those involved. It is a form of commitment by the participants, but with the understanding that humans aren't perfect, and living with someone with that commitment is a saner option than commiting without an easier way out (legalities, for instance), but with a stronger tie than just shacking up together.

As for your last hypothesis, the way the handfasting is done, it doesn't automatically end when the year and day are up. That's just the time given, and at which both parties reflect on the year that's been, and choose what to do for the rest of their lives based on that year. That is presuming they're still together....

Saydrah, different people have different attitudes to sex, thus to some, the whole virginity thing is very important. To others, it's not. I know a couple of women (Christians... with a capital C) who are choosing to remain virgins till married. I respect them for it, but I don't agree in their ideal though. But then, I have different beliefs, and also have done the pre-marital sex, and that changed my attitudes towards it.

[Evandril]

I just don't see the problem with marriage and if/when things don't work out as planned, a divorce. The problem is the lack of no fault divorces in many states and and nations rather than marriage assumed to be permanent.

What happens if one person is injured, incapabe of informed consent, but the time limit on their marriage runs out while in a coma or some such? The healthy partner becomes a non-relative and the nasty next of kin makes all the decisions despite the non-spouse knowing that that isn't what the victim would want?

Lets say they do what's more common currently, and live together instead of even a handfasting...and this happens during the year. Heck, with *your* situation, neither you nor your partner would be protected, correct? If people are ready for marriage, all well and good. If they want something more 'binding' than just being roommates with benifits, 'tis an option short of marriage...and *hopefully* might make people wait on marriage until they are more certain of how they will work together (The 'hollywood' week-month marriages come to mind, there...handfasting would be a drastic improvement there...If they even took that seriously *shrugs*)

[Flyndaran]

Lets say they do what's more common currently, and live together instead of even a handfasting...and this happens during the year. Heck, with *your* situation, neither you nor your partner would be protected, correct? If people are ready for marriage, all well and good. If they want something more 'binding' than just being roommates with benifits, 'tis an option short of marriage...and *hopefully* might make people wait on marriage until they are more certain of how they will work together (The 'hollywood' week-month marriages come to mind, there...handfasting would be a drastic improvement there...If they even took that seriously *shrugs*)

Of course you're right: I realized it after I had time to think.
If something happened to me, my life mate Tonya would have no legal standing to make decisions. It would fall to my mother. She, like everyone else in the world, does not know me anywhere near as completely as Tonya.
I've wondered about some form of indisposed power of attorney for us. That would avoid the whole marriage thing.

But leaving it as it is is still worse than your suggestion, so I must retract my previous view and admit to being wrong.

[Fashion Lad!]

I'm definitely for pre-marital sex. Not because I'm some huge perv... (mostly)

But, because I do think it helps strengthen a relationship. Also, you can be great friends with someone, and you can make out with them and you can kiss them and enjoy it, but, I think sexual chemistry takes a lot more and it can mean a whole lot more.

Plus, sex is great!

[Flyndaran]

My relationship is unbreakable, even though my medication destroyed my libido.
But I certainly doubt we would have become such great partners if there was no sex in the beginning.