Way to GO HS Football Coach

[Hyena Dandy]

The coach was not trying to teach the players that "Life Isn't Fair" at all anyway; it was that you as a person need to hold yourself responsible for the actions of those you associate yourself and work with. You need to stand up when you see others doing wrong, and you need to not allow others to tarnish your own reputation. Along with that, there were several other lessons that the coach set out to teach.

Life isn't fair wasn't one of them.

And my only argument was that, in fact, that specific argument doesn't hold water. It's not a logical fallacy to say that that's not a good argument. It'd be a logical fallacy if I said that was your ONLY argument. I never said your only argument is that it teaches life isn't fair. I said that that PART of your argument wasn't right.

Football already teaches people that life isn't fair. Based on the size, the prestige, and the districting of the school you go to, you are going to be on a better or a worse team. Regardless of teamwork, the other team will have better players.

You can say "Sometimes life isn't fair" as a reason that something isn't BAD. But you shouldn't use "We're teaching people life isn't fair" as a reason something SHOULD be done.

[Racket_Man]

Again, it must be pointed out that being on a team in school is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. Had players all been suspended from SCHOOL, I agree that that would have been wrong. They weren't. They were suspended from the team. And then they had to earn their way back on to the team. Which, let's be honest, is how most teams work: you have to EARN the right to be on that team. I did not get my position at The Bar simply by showing up. I applied and interviewed, and based upon my work history and their interaction with me, management decided to make me part of their team. I also did not simply become the rum expert there overnight. I put in the work, extra work outside of work hours, to improving the rum experience of our guests. Management made me the rum expert at their rum bar because I earned my way into that position.

.

THIS ^^^^^^. I could have written these words although my situation is based on me starting the job (pizza delivery driver) as a 2d job, BUT I worked hard, started doing little extra things here and there, working extra shifts, willingness to stay when co-workers either NCNSed, car breakdowns, bad schedules, or we got slammed, and the willingness to take on some "difficult" tasks (and yes I did get paid for all the extra stuff). BUT in all of this I am still a team player for the most part. The people we have for drivers is a really hard core group of people who have been together for "forever" ( average tenure of a driver at my store is like 10 years)

When the time came for what would be considered "seniority" considerations ie. choice hours and scheduling, consideration of time off requests, etc. I got first consideration.

What no one seems to be seeing in all of this is the fact that A LOT of HS AND college football players have instilled in them a really big sense of entitlement.

Back in my HS days, the football team (as crappy as they were during my HS years) seemed to be able to wiggle out of detentions, were given a pass on low grades (my districts requirement was at least a C or 2.0 GPA), got away with stuff in school that would have gotten an ordinary student detention or suspension, etc.

The boys in most HS settings are pampered and insulated cause they are FOOTBALL PLAYERS whether rural or urban.

Just look at all of the news stories that are like Sutubenville. Generic headline :"HS football player(s) <note the individual OR plural here> accused of <insert sex scandal such as rape, bad behavior, drug use, violent act>"

OH YES the horror of some young adult male being stupid BUT what sets this apart is the fact that most of the space is filled with "OHHHHHH but now his career is over" or "OOOHHHHHHH the horror of it all what will <star player>? do now???", OR "Why did this <slut, nasty bullying victim, drug user, etc.> have to be sooooooo mean to our special snowflake <football player>"

This coach seems to have learned some lessons from the past and the plan was to stamp out some of the "entitlement" and teach some real world lessons ie. there are consequences to decisions you make. Consequences that can be positive OR negative.

I am sorry but in the real world IF I skip work or I do a poor job at my job THERE will be negative consequences. I will not get a pass, I will be disciplined and or TERMINATED.

Maybe this lesson will teach some life skills to more than a few.

[Hyena Dandy]

And really that has nothing to do with it, as the thing that people were objecting to wasn't punishing people who did something wrong, it was punishing peoplewho DIDN'T do something wrong.

Many highschool football players are total dicks. Also, many of them are really nice guys. I had a couple friends who were on the football team in highschool.

Yes, if you skip work and do a poor job there will be negative consequences. But if your co-worker skips work or does a poor job, should the whole shift be punished or fired on the grounds that you should have stopped him? And if you did, would you be coming on here to talk about how, while it's not fair, it was definitely the right call to fire you?

This isn't about punishing people who were getting away with some bullshit. This is about punishing the people who WEREN'T. The idea I'm getting from that post coming off as "All highschool football players are inherently guilty."

I started out thinking this punishment was a good idea, but the more I hear people defending it, the less sure I am about that. >_<

[Hyena Dandy]

Edit:

and second, that "somebody is seeing this."

Also, third: That somebody is not stepping up.

Suppose someone is in class when he sees this happen. After class, he pulls his buddy aside, and says "Hey, cut that out. That's some real bullshit you're doing there. It's not fair to the teacher."

And... The guy does it anyway.

I had a very close friend in school - Still my friend - Who skipped a lot of class, ran off to have sex with her boyfriend almost daily, shrugged off homework assignments, and got bad grades when she did pass them in...

I tried to help with class. I tried to get her to come to class more. Ultimately, I failed, and she flunked out.

You can TRY to help people. But ultimately, my stepping up doesn't mean that it did anything.

And the thing about "Everyone knew about the bullying" is ridiculous. The only way I can imagine there being difficulty figuring out who the bully is that a bunch of guys in football uniforms with ski masks jumped out and started mocking someone. Via the internet.

I don't think the school doesn't know who the bully is.

Who do you think the players respect more? Their teachers/administrators, or their coach?

Honestly, if they are bullying other students/being disrespectful to teachers, I'm going to say that the only person they'll listen to is the one who has control over if they get to play a sport they like or not.

Possibly the coach. And possibly not. Possibly they respect their math teacher the most. Maybe they respect the study hall person. Or the lunch lady. Maybe different team members respect different people because, shockingly, a football team is not a monolithic unit that shares a psychic link.

Honestly, if I'd been on the team in highschool, and I knew about someone acting out, I probably wouldn't have gone and told the coach about it. I would have concluded that, since the teachers will tell administration, administration will decide if the coach should know. It's not my job.

And no-one is arguing him kicking the people who were acting out off the team is unfair. They're arguing that kicking people off the team (or suspending the games or whatever) because they expect the team to know everything everyone is doing at all times is unfair.

[Fire_on_High]

I mean, imagine if one of the defensive line hadn't done anything wrong and the running back had, how easy would it to "forget" to block during a game?

I'm sorry, we're talking about football here, not crybaby sissy ball. There's a fine tradition of dirty hits, concussions, broken legs, etc for those who fuck up. I'm sure when one of the guilty parties gets the stuffing knocked out of him so many times he has to quit on account of injury, he'll learn his lesson.

No pity from me. Time to man up and eat those consequences...mmm mmm!

[HYHYBT]

I am sorry but in the real world IF I skip work or I do a poor job at my job THERE will be negative consequences. I will not get a pass, I will be disciplined and or TERMINATED.

Yeah, nobody's even remotely approached arguing otherwise, either, so why bring that up?

I'm sorry, we're talking about football here, not crybaby sissy ball.

Nice.

There's a fine tradition of dirty hits, concussions, broken legs, etc for those who fuck up.

…which is a different problem in itself, not something to be praised or encouraged.

[Gravekeeper]

Okay, I've read all 6 pages of this and, to be bluntly honest: What the fuck are we arguing about?

Lets break this down:

1) Absolutely everyone involved in the story is completely okay with this from the students to the parents. By all accounts the students are responding positively.

2) It'd be pretty obvious to the coach and teachers which students have bad grades, discipline problems, disrespecting teachers, etc.

3) The coach obviously knows the nature and tone of the locker room.

4) Only 2 of 7 captains were re-elected, that's pretty god damn telling that the team as a whole knew what was going on.

5) There are students in the article itself that admit they knew the team was up to some shit but didn't step up to try and stop it. Even the students that seem innocent appear to completely understand and support the decision.

So tell me then: If everyone directly involved in this situation with direct knowledge of this situation is completely fine if not completely embracing the positive nature of this situation....what the hell does it matter if a couple of Internet commemorators with no direct knowledge of the situation whine about it being "unfair" or "unjust" ( seriously? ) on their behalf? When they themselves wouldn't even agree with you.

To be bluntly honest: That entire line of argument is meaningless and this thread should have ended some odd 3 pages ago. -.-

[Hyena Dandy]

I'm sorry, we're talking about football here, not crybaby sissy ball. There's a fine tradition of dirty hits, concussions, broken legs, etc for those who fuck up. I'm sure when one of the guilty parties gets the stuffing knocked out of him so many times he has to quit on account of injury, he'll learn his lesson.

That's... Just wrong. Seriously, that is fucked up. I'm still on the fence about the punishment used, and I definitely know that happens, but the idea that it should be encouraged is seriously disturbing. As much as these guys are dicks, I don't want them getting a concussion or a broken leg as 'team-issued punishment.' Physical punishment like that is not called for, no matter who issues it. My view on trying to injure another player to 'punish' him is exactly the same as my view if the coach was to intentionally do it. Does it happen? Yes. But it should not be praised and cheered about.

And seriously "Not crybaby sissy ball!" Injuries are part of the game, but I was under the impression that they're a NEGATIVE part. I mean, I figured the view was "Oh, injuries happen, but they can get through them" as opposed to "Man, it's a good thing these players get injured sometimes!"

Honestly, if there WAS a magic way to ensure players never got injured in football, I'd be all for it. I want switch out the helmets and go back to leather pads, but that's because I honestly think that's safer, not because I think injuries are the special prize inside.

That type of attitude is really disgusting.

[Fire_on_High]

If you play football, expect injuries. If you fuck over the ppl who are supposed to be protecting you...they might forget to, as someone else stated. They don't even have to try, merely let the other team get at the troublemakers. Actions have consequences.

GK: We like to argue.

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

It seems unfair on its face, but when you have a team that spends that much time all together, the idea that those who didn't participate didn't at least know about the issues and do nothing to see that they were corrected is still a problem.

Let's just say for a moment that the cyberbullying was confirmed as being done by some members of the football team. How is one member going to know what the other does on his computer in the middle of the night?

I have a classic example. At my High School in Minneapolis, we had a person who bragged about his sexual prowess and how he could get his hands on more breasts than any of us could and at any time he damn well pleased.

We assumed that he meant that he had tons of girlfriends (or at least @#$% buddies) and was bragging about it.

It was a complete shock when he was arrested at the High School for sexual assault. You see, he was going around the paths for the in-city lakes (Calhoun and Harriet) on his bicycle and grabbing the female joggers' breasts as he rode past.

I was on cross-country ski team with him. We didn't have a @#$%ing clue. Should we have been punished along with him? Should we have lost our ability to play as a team simply because of his actions?

Since however the team itself and the parents are groovy with this...in this situation I can't really say anything about the coach's actions. He managed to dial it in and do what the team needed.

But I do object to the thought that everyone in a team should be held accountable for the actions of one person.

[Gravekeeper]

Let's just say for a moment that the cyberbullying was confirmed as being done by some members of the football team. How is one member going to know what the other does on his computer in the middle of the night?

Because you could do it from a smart phone in the middle of class and bullying is a pack mentality. Again, there are students in the article that admitted they were aware of things going on but didn't say anything. And that's just the ones that were willing to openly admit knowledge. Also, whose to say the bullying was only online? It must translate to school to some degree was well.

Arguing over the cyberbullying aspect of this is pointless. Because we don't have the full picture and aren't privvy to the social dynamics of the situation. You're arguing over a lack of information upon which both sides can only argue assumptions. If the coach and students have reason to suspect some shit was going on, its impossible to argue against their opinion of the situation because we're just a bunch of voices on the internet armchairing what we read from one news article.

Besides, cyberbullying is only one small piece of the whole problem as well. Its not as if this situation would be different with that piece removed.

[Mongo Skruddgemire]

Arguing over the cyberbullying aspect of this is pointless. Because we don't have the full picture and aren't privvy to the social dynamics of the situation.

Ok, let's take the cyberbullying out of the picture. Let's go with what we do know. The disrespect of the teachers.

What would a student do if he saw a teammate doing that? Ask them to stop? Sure that's a possibility, but often is the case where a person will not change their ways based on someone saying that they ought not to. What next? Report him/her to a teacher? If the person is disrespecting the teachers then they already know it's a problem. It's like going to the responding firefighters at a fire and saying "Excuse me. Were you aware that there is a building on fire over there?"

If the coach and students have reason to suspect some shit was going on, its impossible to argue against their opinion of the situation because we're just a bunch of voices on the internet armchairing what we read from one news article.

Judging by these examples...

http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=8444
http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=8443
http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=8427
http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=8388
http://www.fratching.com/showthread.php?t=8430

...internet armchairing is what we do here at Fratching. We see something that we don't like on them thar interwebs and we fratch, complain, oppose, defend...in short we armchair.

Besides, cyberbullying is only one small piece of the whole problem as well. Its not as if this situation would be different with that piece removed.

No the situation would not be any different because as I stated...

Since however the team itself and the parents are groovy with this...in this situation I can't really say anything about the coach's actions. He managed to dial it in and do what the team needed.

My point of view is that I object to this as potentially being the beginnings of a trend. What works for one coach (teacher, school administrator, etc) is often copied by another and another. How long before we have a case where someone does something illegal (drugs, steroids, sexual molestation, etc) and the coach there decides to pull the same trick this one did?

Would you defend the coach for suspending the entire team then?

[Gravekeeper]

Ok, let's take the cyberbullying out of the picture. Let's go with what we do know. The disrespect of the teachers.

Disrespect of teachers, poor grads and skipping classes.

What would a student do if he saw a teammate doing that? Ask them to stop? Sure that's a possibility, but often is the case where a person will not change their ways based on someone saying that they ought not to. What next? Report him/her to a teacher?

The students in question were being disciplined, but it obviously wasn't helping. As stated, this is an exercise in changing the character of the team. If the team views these things as unacceptable, then yes, they will focus on a person that's doing it and its quite likely he'll stop under the social pressure. The coach stated part of his problem was that he knew he had good kids on the team, but that those kids, in their position as leaders in the team, didn't step up to shut down or object to shit going on in the locker room etc.

...internet armchairing is what we do here at Fratching. We see something that we don't like on them thar interwebs and we fratch, complain, oppose, defend...in short we armchair.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying armchairing is the problem. I'm saying the problem is we're armchairing an aspect of the situation that has no information. We have no information on the details of the cyberbullying or why the team was suspected of it. So both sides can only come up with assumptions based on the events in their head and argue over whose imagination is better.

Would you defend the coach for suspending the entire team then?

I'm not following. You're presenting a scenario involving an individual as opposed to multiple members of a team acting as a group or creating a group culture where an undesirable behaviour is accepted. That's different from what we have here.

[s_stabeler]

Would you defend the coach for suspending the entire team then?

if the rest of the team knew about it, and did nothing? frankly, yes. If it was just one person, then no.

I will admit that it is fairly extreme ( it looks suspiciously like it was 9 of the team who were the problem, so not most of the team.) But considering that it's made the rest of the team actually think about what it means to be on the football team? It's probably a good idea.

Oh, and not to mention- for all we know, scrapping the team was considered, considering the school administration supported the coach.

[KitterCat]

So tell me then: If everyone directly involved in this situation with direct knowledge of this situation is completely fine if not completely embracing the positive nature of this situation....what the hell does it matter if a couple of Internet commemorators with no direct knowledge of the situation whine about it being "unfair" or "unjust" ( seriously? ) on their behalf? When they themselves wouldn't even agree with you.

To be bluntly honest: That entire line of argument is meaningless and this thread should have ended some odd 3 pages ago. -.-

It's simple Greenday. Some people like discussing higher points of philosophical mortality, while getting all disappointed when no one else agrees with them. Including the people punished.

For myself, I would have been fine if the coach had decided to go this rout,
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...sports/309447/

After all sports are an earned elective. They don't even have to be part of the schools program.