The *Problem* with socialized healthcare.

[Scamper]

I was talking to someone the other day and he maintained that socialized medicine is a failure. He pointed out all the high quality medical centers in the U.S. like Johns Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic and claimed that there aren't any equivalents in countries with socialized medicine. I was unable to prove him wrong and haven't been able to find anything on-line about this. Was he feeding me a line of bull? or are there better hospitals in socialized countries?

[crazylegs]

Well, in the UK at least we have Great Ormond Street Hospital, which is a renowed centre for pediatrics (sp?), so much so we've had people come from Malta for an operation on their conjoined twins.

We also have Frenchay (sp?) Hospital, which is very well known (in the South West of England anyhow) for Neuro work.

I would argue that the main advantage within the US is size. The population is what, 300 million? The population of the UK is hovering just under 60 Million so it's of no suprise that the US has large 'super hospitals' such as those mentioned as it's easier to pool resources and personnel from such a large labour pool as they all operate under the same legal framework and speak the same language (which doesn't happen in Europe).

[lordlundar]

Simply remind him that for every "exceptional" hospital that is available for roughly 5-10 percent of the population that can afford it, there's several hundred places that are barely afloat and several others that are derelict at best.

As for comparable, to what? Money, prestige? He certainly can't claim accomplishments as there's at least 5 in Canada who are leaders in bio-medical research, one of which specializes in child problems.

[Boozy]

Crazylegs is right; population size is a big part of why the US is able to support so many world class hospitals.

But if they're not careful, they're going to fall behind. The UK is currently the world leader in stem cell research. It's too bad that this kind of research has become so politicized in the US, as many American research hospitals are not getting the funding for it. As stem cell research progresses, and clinical trials begin, we'll start to see Americans leave their country for Canada or the UK to get treatment.

[AFPheonix]

Invite him to work in a health care environment or volunteer for a free or low cost clinic. I work in a chain pharmacy and volunteer for a non-profit urgent care clinic.

Having to help people with no insurance get life-saving meds, or encountering people who let health problems spiral out of control because they couldn't afford to do anything about it will change his mind. We are in an untenable situation, especially now with people going out of work and losing insurance all over.

[Scamper]

OK, thanks for the replies. I can see that he was full of it. I was thinking accomplishments and such. So how much of your taxes goes to healthcare?

[DrT]

Well as far as accomplishments, there is at least one big center for each European country (think London, Paris, Berlin, Madrid). But you can't really think like that, here's why:
-funding for researsh (which brings the accomplishments in questions, yes?) is different here: hospitals do get a say, but it mostly goes through a centralized government agency or two, which means that good researsh doesn't always mean good hospital.
So to be fair in comparing accomplishments, you ought not to check hospital centers but countries. Check the number of publications in journals like Nature or Science, normalized to the numer of inhabitants.
You'll find all western nations on par with the US, with leaders in specific areas being disseminated a lil everywhere

-quality of care: same, chekc the capitals. A European capital is about the size of a big city in the US, and you'll find quality of care that is equivalent. For treatment of rarer diseases (like organ replacement, some cancers), you'll find at least one excellent centers, with some other small centers who'll refer the hardest cases to the big center.

And for being myself in the health care world, and talking honestly with people in america or in Europe, there are only VERY few diseases that would make me leave this country for treatment, and that would be to go to England or Germany. Honestly, quality of care is just as good, and if you normalized to the people actually able to get that care, it's much better.

-cost: I make about 2400€/month, of which 300 are taken away by the state immediatly for taxes. I pay roughly 400€ a year for my complimentary health care (covering dental, eyes and the rest). If I go see the doctors, I pay nothing (and wait 30 min max), if I go the hospital, I pay nothing (for routine stuff, which does include MRI, scanners and the heavy stuff) and wait as long as I did in the US
Didn't have a graft yet, but I'd gather it wouldn't cost me a bunch.
Oh, and I get 300€ a month from the state to help me with the kids, plus 150€ for my rent because my wife is unemployed, 900€ was reimbursed to me for the cost of moving, and my youngest's daycare is costs me only about 80€ a month because the rest is reimbursed by the state.
Since my rent for a 4 Bedroom house of about 200 sq meters (dunno in feet) is only 800€, I can live comfortably with my three kids, and all the medical bills that we incurr. utilities run for about 150€ a month during winter.
Considering my situation, I except not to pay more than 400€ in taxes this year; if any at all with the numbers of kids I have and an unemployed wife. I don't pay property taxes because I don't own anything (for now, piece of advice: don't start looking for the prices of houses around here, you may get depressed)

So that should give you an idea of costs and the like.
Oh, before I go: my ex situation in the US:
I made 3500$ a month. nothing went away immediatly because of my type of contract. paid about 400$ in fed taxes, and 1400$ in state tax (Maryland) a year
rent for a 100 sq meter house, 4 Bedrooms, was 1600$ (in Rockville, which does not compare with my present location that is true). utilities in winter ran to about 600$ (crappy isolation of the house, that's what you get for a house made of panelled wood)
I didn't pay for health care coverage, my employer did (thanks the NIH), to the amount of 600$ a month. This didn't cover dental. my copay at the doc was about 10$ (BlueCross), copay at the hospital was in the 100's for small stuff like emergency care and Xrays. Was luky not to need extensive care treatments. I sure as hell cound't afford Hopkins.
Daycare for a 1.5 yrs old child was about 1000 a month, back when we had to pay for it (not lately, sine my wife didn't work and kept the child in school). For a schoolage child tis about 500 a month (for after school only).
Now I pay at most 100€ for that.

I hope this gives you enough data to think about the issue.


Oh, and before I forget: France is not the best country in Europe (we are in debt and have a bit of unemployment). Germany happens to be near zero unemployed, for instance, and is the first economy in Europe.

[Slytovhand]

Scamper, I haven't noticed anyone from this part of the world respond, so I'll put in my 2 cents worth.

Firstly, I'm not fully aware of the hospitals you mentioned, though I have heard the Mayo name before.

But, in Australia, we do also have some exceptionally good hospitals, with some of the best health care in the world. It is very rare that someone actually needs to go overseas to get better care, and that is in extreme circumstances, for something either very rare, or to use a piece of equipment that, not only is used rarely, but also costs a small fortune (and thus, lack of usage means it's not worth it).

We've also invented a few procedures, and have some world ranking research.

And all that for a population of a mere 20 million....

[daleduke17]

Firstly, I'm not fully aware of the hospitals you mentioned, though I have heard the Mayo name before.

Mayo Clinic is one of the hospitals in Minnesota that a lot of prestigious people (actors, politicians, world leaders) choose to go to.

[IDrinkaRum]

John Hopkins is a hospital in Baltimore, MD.

It's one of the best hospitals in the country.

Through my husband's job, we have Blue Cross/Blue Shield. I love the insurance. It's really good, and they cover just about everything (except vision & dental - which we get through separate companies).

DC Children's Hospital is great for pediatrics of all sorts (i.e., developmental, dentistry, neurology, etc. and that's where we take our daughter to see her developmental pediatrician). Fairfax Hospital for Women & Children is where #1. my daughter received excellent treatment for her RSV where she was in the PICU (Pediatric Intensive Care Unit) for almost a month and #2. Where my sister delivered her daughter after a difficult pregnancy.

INOVA Hospital is where I delivered my daughter. Again, excellent service (some of the nurses weren't the greatest), and an old friend of mine ended up having her son put in the NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) as soon as he was born. Again, their NICU is one of the best in the Northern VA/Washington DC area. If you can give birth there, do so. Fortunately, I didn't need the NICU when I was there.

The dentist I go to accepts any and all insurances, but he's also out-of-network. And he's an excellent dentist so I go to him for everything. We pay whatever the insurance company doesn't.

I might be considered an elitist, but I prefer the having insurance way of medicine. Hearing about one gentleman in England who died of cancer before he could see a cancer specialist to get his chemo treatments, really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Reading about how there is a lack of dentists who are willing to work in the socialized dental field are instead going into private practice in England ... show me that having insurance is where it is.

[DrT]

I might be considered an elitist, but I prefer the having insurance way of medicine. Hearing about one gentleman in England who died of cancer before he could see a cancer specialist to get his chemo treatments, really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Reading about how there is a lack of dentists who are willing to work in the socialized dental field are instead going into private practice in England ... show me that having insurance is where it is.

Actually, if I follow your logic the insurance way is not the right one.

Indeed, you base your reflexion on reports about people not accessing care. Want to compare numbers between the US and the 'socialized' countries? Even without google, I would bet the rate of people not being able to access proper care is superior in the US than in any other western country (I'm talking percentage, not number)
Not everybody can afford a $1500 root canal, or a lifetime chemotherapy when your insurance decides to drop you (surprisingly soon after you got diagnosed too)

I mean sure, if you are fully covered in the US, you don't feel the need to go elsewhere. But as mentionned above: try to volunteer in free clinics, or simply in the emergency room or your local hospital

[Scamper]

Huh, I guess Ya'll actually convinced me. A 2%-5% increase in income taxes on the one side, and "health insurance" for all on the other. Hmm. sounds good, let's do it.

[daleduke17]

Huh, I guess Ya'll actually convinced me. A 2%-5% increase in income taxes on the one side, and "health insurance" for all on the other. Hmm. sounds good, let's do it.

Nah, let's not. Why should I help pay for insurance of someone who isn't putting forth their share?

[anriana]

Nah, let's not. Why should I help pay for insurance of someone who isn't putting forth their share?

Children are so lazy.

[daleduke17]

Children are so lazy.

Nope, not children. The adults (able bodied/minded) who don't work, yet want me to give money to support them.