The *Problem* with socialized healthcare.

[Boozy]

This attitude towards socialized health care is a good example of Americans cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

There will always be lazy people in this world. These people comprise a small percentage of the population. That is the world we live in, and there is nothing we can do about it. Now stop shooting yourselves in the foot in a vain attempt to bring justice.

The real situation is this: Under the average socialized health care plan, the average American would pay far less in extra taxes than they currently do in insurance premiums. Some of those extra taxes will be subsidising health care those lazy people who don't work. But the average taxpayer will still be better off financially.

[daleduke17]

I've always been a supporter of the "you don't work, you don't eat" mentality. If people want to voluntarily assist others, then they are more than welcome to.

Hell, right now the state (and/or federal government) pay people's rent, food, schooling, insurance (in some cases) and have told certain utilities they can't shut off power if people don't pay their bills (I know electric and water for sure, there may be another). Why should anyone work? Let the state foot the bill.

Also, Boozy, how do you know that the "average American" would pay less in taxes?

[Pedersen]

I'll use me as an anecdotal data point: My average payment to pay for insurance for myself and my wife has been around $200/month. That translates to $2400/year.

For that $2400, I have to hope that my company gets a good health plan, versus a crappy one. If it's good, I'll pay extremely little for maintaining my health. If it's poor, I can find myself paying a lot to maintain it.

Compared with the numbers I've seen quoted of 2% to 5% increase in taxes, which translates to $1400 to $3600 additional (for me). Only now I'll have health care that will be accepted at over 90% of all medical facilities. It will be very hard to go out of network, and find myself dealing with higher costs.

I'll also compare that with one person I used to know who paid, for his family of four, about $12,000/year, and he makes less than me. Assume that both him and his wife wind up paying in the high end ($3600) each, and they will still have nearly $5000 extra every year that they didn't have before.

And all of that only covers people who are covered. What about who have just switched jobs? Have you looked at the costs of the cobra coverage? I did. When I just switched jobs last year, the cost was $700/month to maintain what I was paying $200/month for. This also means that my employer was paying out $700/month for two people. Assuming the ratios hold, that other guy I mentioned was costing his employer $24,000/yr for that insurance. I can absolutely guarantee that the employer will be making more money out of it.

Personally, I have no problem believing that the average American will make out like a bandit. It's not terribly difficult math. The hard part to figure out is how much it costs the employers to maintain the health insurance. Get those numbers figured out, and you'll see that it's quite easy for everybody to start saving some big dollars.

Assuming, of course, that the 2% to 5% increase is the actual number. If the taxes go over that, all bets are off.

[Slytovhand]

Australia doesn't have the best health system in the world (I think that privilege goes to Sweden???)

But, we have free healthcare, free hospitals for everyone. Even visitors to the country! Unfortunately, we don't have free ambulance cover nation-wide (though, in my old state of Queensland, they covered it in the rates bill! Smart thinking!!). We also have medical insurance, and that brings a tax break. And you get better benefits using insurance, and often faster treatment for elective surgery and the like. (our Medicare doesn't cover dentistry though).

DaleDuke, Boozy didn't say the 'average American' would pay less in taxes, she said they'd be better off financially. Because, since not everyone has medical insurance, if everyone did start having to pay a couple of % extra on tax, then it would yield more $$$ than would be garnered through the insurance network, and thus buying in bulk means lest cost.

Though, I do agree, assistance does seem to be getting out of hand. Over here, you don't pay your power bill, you get cut off... simple! We have free basic schooling (ie to senior year) so that our standard of education is pretty good and no-one has a reason not to be educated. Food is one thing that doesn't get any government assistance, although rent can be (but that's part of a real stupid part of the system...grrr....... would you believe that if you are an adult student, you can't get rent assistance, but if you're under 25 and unemployed, you can????)

[AFPheonix]

Though, I do agree, assistance does seem to be getting out of hand. Over here, you don't pay your power bill, you get cut off... simple! We have free basic schooling (ie to senior year) so that our standard of education is pretty good and no-one has a reason not to be educated. Food is one thing that doesn't get any government assistance, although rent can be (but that's part of a real stupid part of the system...grrr....... would you believe that if you are an adult student, you can't get rent assistance, but if you're under 25 and unemployed, you can????)

You don't necessarily have winter weather like we do here. Do you really want to be cutting power and/or gas off to people when the weather is at or below freezing just because they can't pay? There are small costs built into our power and gas payments that go into trust for elderly and the poor who need help paying for their utilities.
This also works as a public safety thing so people in apartments don't do something stupid like bring a kerosene heater into their unit and kill themselves with carbon monoxide gas or set the whole building on fire.

[Slytovhand]

Yes, well, this is true. It does make one think about how our environment affects our policies...

One problem with private health (and, for that matter, socialised) in this country, is in Aboriginal territory. We have reserves for the tribal lands, and there's no way on earth they'd be able to afford private health care - for that matter, even our social system doesn't do enough, and they're in the middle of nowhere. I believe that some of your Native Americans may fall into a similar situation???

[AFPheonix]

Most definitely so. The tribes are sovereign, but life on the reservations can be very bleak indeed.
Some tribes have started casinos in order to get money flowing into their hands again, which have worked in the short term. The Grand Rhonde Confederated tribes in my state are a good example of that, and they use that money for schools, healthcare, and many other things that benefit the people registered with the tribe who might otherwise be unemployed and impossibly poor, especially with the way the economy tends to run in our coastal areas.

I'm not sure how the downturn has been effecting them or some of the other tribes though. It would be interesting to look into.

[ElMarko]

I was talking to someone the other day and he maintained that socialized medicine is a failure. He pointed out all the high quality medical centers in the U.S. like Johns Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic

Better for what? Teaching, research or patient care. What type of patient care? All those factors make a linear ranking impossible.

[Seshat]

My question regarding socialised health care:


Does the person working 60 hours a week at two jobs, both sub-full-time, both very hard menial work, deserve less health care than a CEO working 30 hours a week and getting a massive salary?


If you say yes, please justify your answer in a way that will not upset the many members of this board who work as stockers, cashiers, and other tough, but low-paid jobs.


Thank you.

[Boozy]

No. And that's one of the best reasons for some form of state-provided healthcare.

Although I do wonder where you're finding CEOs that work 30 hours a week. Some may be greedy, corrupt, and incompetent, but I don't know of any who could get away without putting in at least 50 hours a week.

[Giggle Goose]

John Hopkins is a hospital in Baltimore, MD.

INOVA Hospital is where I delivered my daughter. Again, excellent service (some of the nurses weren't the greatest), and an old friend of mine ended up having her son put in the NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) as soon as he was born. Again, their NICU is one of the best in the Northern VA/Washington DC area. If you can give birth there, do so. Fortunately, I didn't need the NICU when I was there.

I was born there, it damn well better be! You are, of course, talking about Fairfax (which is really Annandale but hey, who's keeping track)?

[kamn]

You don't necessarily have winter weather like we do here. Do you really want to be cutting power and/or gas off to people when the weather is at or below freezing just because they can't pay? There are small costs built into our power and gas payments that go into trust for elderly and the poor who need help paying for their utilities.
This also works as a public safety thing so people in apartments don't do something stupid like bring a kerosene heater into their unit and kill themselves with carbon monoxide gas or set the whole building on fire.

We (most probably) do have your kind of weather (-10C for the past month or so). We still get our stuff shut off if we're 1-2 months behind and cant pay. And the prisons wont accept you for minor damage/petty theft (the hobos(forgot the polite term) did that for a while to get warm and get a meal in the winter months, get out in summer or sooner). Our shelters were full before, are way past their limit now. Most anyone who cant pay right now goes to their relatives if possible, unkown if not.


Socialised healthcare can be great. So great that I personally cant imagine being forced to pay coverage. I have had to visit the doctor 3 times in the past 5 years, would have cost me a pretty penny if an insurance plan was needed. We are too small to say that we are the best, but almost anything we need is here. Anything we cant do here you are flown on country expense (I think, will check) to the nearest place that can.

[AFPheonix]

Heh. This has been a pretty interesting winter here in the pacific northwest. It snowed again today, we rarely get more than a dusting in the Willamette valley each winter, this year has been pretty epic. I am glad that our utilities do have those stopgap assistance plans, as well as the help from non-profits who will help with at least a month's worth of utilities if people are having a hard time.

I have noticed many more people uninsured this month coming through my pharmacy. Insurance companies are also raising their copays by quite a bit, and a lot of people are choosing high deductible plans that went into effect Jan 1st so they could have lower premiums.
Luckily we've had a few pretty expensive drugs like Imitrex go generic lately, and I expect shipment of generic Effexor XR in the next few months as well. That should be a big help to a lot of people.

[Slytovhand]

Well now, let me just add this scenario for you.

Just recently, my arthritis/gout started acting up. So, I went to a new doctor (wanted someone closer, and more human). First time I went in, went through the normal stuff. Didn't pay a cent

Second time, came back to let her know how my meds were going (getting bad reactions...). Again, didn't pay a cent

Then, lastly, I went to get some more drugs. Unfortunately, my script was out of date. So, I went back to doc (about 50 meters away), and (fortunately it was empty), I basically walked straight into her office and got said scripts..again, didn't pay a cent

I like our health system!! (drugs set me back a little though, but then as I expect them to last 6 months, a year, maybe 2... I'm not that worried).

[AFPheonix]

I had some poor little old lady with a copay on lovenox of close to $3,000. Lovenox is a fast-acting blood thinner.

We as a country HAVE to do better as far as our health care coverage goes.