The *Problem* with socialized healthcare.

[IDrinkaRum]

I was born there, it damn well better be! You are, of course, talking about Fairfax (which is really Annandale but hey, who's keeping track)?

Annandale, Fairfax ... meh ... it's all Northern Virginia, yes? It's just too funny ... Someone told me some place was in Springfield, just down the road from Springfield Mall, yet all the information I've been able to find say they're in like Alexandria. See ... sometimes Northern VA is just crazy.

[protege]

We as a country HAVE to do better as far as our health care coverage goes.

I agree with you. However, people want it, but nobody wants to pay for it. People bitch and moan about the high prices of healthcare...but the moment you start talking about raising taxes to pay for it...they bitch about that too. It's either raise taxes, or cut spending (and pink elephants will fly)...which also gets bitched about. Jeez, why can't people understand that funding is finite, while the country's needs aren't?

However, I don't think that socialized healthcare is the answer. You get the government involved in *anything* and they'll fuck it up. What we need to do, is try to find a way to bring the costs down on what we have.

[guywithashovel]

This attitude towards socialized health care is a good example of Americans cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
[/I]

I'm still "on the fence" over whether or not a universal healthcare system would work well here in the US. But be that as it may, you have to take time to consider how the far right sees the world.

You see, shortly before the 2008 election that gave Barack Obama the presidency, and it became painfully obvious that a McCain/Palin presidency was not going to happen without a miracle, they decided that ANYONE who challenges them on ANYTHING is

1. A Socialist, Communist, or Marxist (or a combination of the 3), and/or
2. Lazy and willfully unemployed.


If you talk to them (not all of them, though), and you differ with them on any of their salient points, they will probably get in your face and accuse you of being the reincarnate of Lenin and/or tell you that you should "get off your ass and get a goddamn job" (and they'll say this without taking the time to learn ANYTHING about your present employment situation). In short, they think *they* are the only ones on this planet who work hard for what they have. Evidently, everyone else is lazy and has no motivation in life.

This is why they start talking about lazy people and socialism every time a universal healthcare system is being discussed. They don't think anyone save them and their ilk contributes anything of value to the world.

As for a universal healthcare system for the US, it might work, but it may not be the best thing for our country. Just because it works well in other countries doesn't mean it would work well for us. I certainly think we should consider it as an option, but I do wish people would stop acting as though such a system would solve all of our healthcare problems. We would still have problems under a universal system just as we do under the system we have now.

[prb]

Princess Margaret Hospital - The hospital houses one of the largest radiation therapy departments in the world. It has 17 radiation treatment machines, all of which are equipped with the latest technologies, a superficial ortho-voltage X-Ray machine, and operates a Gamma Knife stereotactic radiosurgery machine in collaboration with Toronto Western Hospital. Also a world leader in Cancer research.

Toronto General Hospital - Its surgeons conducted the world's first double-lung transplant in 1986.

Trillium Health Centre (form. Mississauga Hospital) - Queensway Surgicentre - the largest not for admission surgical centre in North America.

I'll stick with my government healthcare

[bigred]

People say a 2-5% increase in their taxes. But our Medicare levy is 1.5% I believe. I have private medical insurance on top of Medicare and the private is more than Medicare.

Having a universal health care system works. The two times I have been in hospital while an adult I went through the emergency room - first time a stroke, second time a bad break of my upper arm and dislocation of my shoulder. Didn't have to pay anything (because it was covered by Medicare), immediate care, no checking of my financial/insurance status. I could have been Joe Bloggs living on the street or a CEO, didn't matter, I got the best care straight away.

Shouldn't that be how it is in a humane society? You are in pain, we will help you. We won't turn you away, or send you into bankruptcy, because you have a low income. Should the people burnt last weekend in the bushfires have had their insurance status checked before being helped?

As an Australian I can't understand the health insurance being tied to your employer.

[Slytovhand]

Good call BigRed. The only thing in our system (other than the backlogs and lack of pay for nursing staff..) is that it doesn't cover ambulance travel (but then - the governments don't put a lot of our tax money into ambulances...).

I find it slightly bemusing that human life is supposed to be the most important thing on the planet, yet here is a perfect example of where it clearly isn't.

Since the debate seems to more centred around US's healthcare system, I'd have to say there seems a clear need for people to pull their heads out of their butts and realise that some socialist reforms are needed for the betterment of their humans... capitalism really sucks for humanity as a whole...(well, unless you want to bring in Survival of the Fittest theories..)

[TheRoo]

I wouldn't say that capitalism in general sucks for humanity. There are some things that capitalism does quite well for society on. Health care is not one of them.

Ideally, I would like to see health care somewhat akin to police and fire protection (both of which are socialized public services). Everyone would be better off if we all pooled our resources to provide health care to everyone, and eliminate for-profit corporations that make more money by denying claims.

[Boozy]

.. capitalism really sucks for humanity as a whole...

We have capitalism to thank for vastly improving the lives of millions, if not billions, of people. Technological advances just do not happen without free markets.

Capitalism has it's problems, but overall, it's been beneficial to humanity.

Unfortunately, capitalism only works wonders when there's money to be had. There's no profit in treating a poor family without insurance. That's why the government needs to have a hand in health care.

[IDrinkaRum]

For those who want Socialized or Universal Healthcare run by the Government, consider this:

Those of us who are working and paying taxes are already contributing to a Government health care plan. These are called Medicare and Medicaid.

Before anyone says anything about how "broken" they are, consider this also:

Have the money the Democrats are willing to put into Socialized Healthcare into these already funded-by-the-Government-so-we-already-have-a-form-of-Socialized-Healthcare programs to clean them up. Why not fix what we already have instead of creating something from complete scratch?

[protege]

Why not fix what we already have instead of creating something from complete scratch?

Because that would make sense

Seriously though, fixing the problem doesn't get nearly the coverage that a new program would. Also, the Democrats seem to want people to be dependent on their government. Think about it, if everything that they're fighting for...suddenly goes away, they're literally a party without a cause.

[AdminAssistant]

Well, I think the long-term goal is healthcare for everyone not just those that qualify for Medicare/Medicaid - two nightmares of bureaucracy. The entire insurance system is broken. For example: a friend of mine has asthma. He has a near impossible time getting affordable health insurance..and even then, they're reluctant to cover any asthma-related expenses, including inhalers and medicine. If he doesn't have the medicine, he dies. So...too fucking bad, sorry you were born with asthma? The whole system is broken and needs to be fixed so that everyone has access to affordable coverage - especially in preventive/general medicine. Obama is absolutely right - uninsured people going to emergency rooms for primary care is a drain on taxpayer money and clogging the system for those with genuine emergencies.

I'm interested to see what Governor Sebelius would do. I think she's a great choice, she's done wonders in Kansas with making sure the Planned Parenthoods stays open. I'm almost sad they picked her for head of Health/Human Services, because I'm afraid her Lt. Gov. won't be able to stand up to the neo-cons from western Kansas as well as she did.

[Seshat]

I don't care what it's called, just go ahead and do it.


Give everyone under an income level of $X a low-income health card. Give everyone under an income level of $X + $Y an intermediate-level health card.

The person hands the card to a pharmacy tech with their prescription. The tech sees the card, logs that a card of that type was used (but not who the user was), and the medication is paid for with a maximum payment of $affordable-amount.
The government covers the rest, perhaps with assistance from the insurance companies - that aspect would have to be negotiated.
Prescription fraud would be an issue, but I'm sure it already is. Existing techniques and technologies can be used to handle prescription fraud without impinging on peoples' privacy.

Certain expensive medications might need a central authority to approve them - Australia does it that way. Back when the medication for the shingles virus was new, my doctor had to call in to get an approval to prescribe it - but she didn't have to say who she was prescribing it for.

The same cards could be used to access affordable general-practitioner visits and preventative health exams.

Those alone would go a long way to helping people. It does leave specialist issues un-accounted for, including mental health more severe than GPs can handle: but it would vastly improve public health in the USA.

[Fashion Lad!]

I'm against socialized health-care.

One of the reasons America is what it is, is because of Capitalism. When you get into Socialized healthcare, you're tip toeing your way to Socialism, and I'm not for that.

I live in Rochester, MN which many of you may know that is the home of the Mayo Clinic. The Mayo Clinic employees about 30,000 people in a city of 100,000. Granted a lot of those employees our from our suburbs. You get to know people who work there and hear thier stories. People from Canada come here to get an MRI because there's a two month waiting list where they are. This isn't uncommon. Mayo Clinic gets patients from all over the world, one of the reasons because they are well-known, another is because these places with socialized health care sometimes have waiting lists so long that the patient will die before they are even diagnosed. (This isn't always the case, but it happens enough that I get to hear about it quite frequently.)

This is in our Constitution.. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness " No where in our Constitution does it mention anything about a guarantee of happiness.

America cannot afford socialized health-care without a fair amount of sacrifice on our part. Right now with the projected spending for 2010 that our President has come up with, even if he taxed the top 2% 100% of their income, we still cannot afford what he has planned. So now, we're looking at raising taxes on people that are not in that top 2%. We'll have to start taxing the middle class. Socialized health-care would be something that we'd have to keep dumping money into, so they wouldn't be temporary tax increases.

Right now, as it stands, China pretty much owns America. Why? Because for some odd reason, we've decided to show restraint in printing money and now we just borrow money from China. If we cease borrowing from China, we then end up printing money making our money worthless.

We should not even beging to think about socialized healthcare until we fix the fact that our economy is tanking. We cannot afford it. There is no money. People need to understand that we are broke. There is NO money. We are borrowing money from China. I'm sorry that someone isn't going to get an MRI because they don't have health insurance. I really am. But we cannot afford it. This is for the greater good in my opinion.

[Pedersen]

This is in our Constitution.. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness " No where in our Constitution does it mention anything about a guarantee of happiness.

Minor nitpick: Our Constitution also doesn't mention "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Rather, the Declaration of Independence has this to say:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The closest bit in the Constitution would be in the Preamble. To wit:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Note the segment in there which reads "promote the general Welfare." That would definitely seem to be an acknowledgement that general health is something that matters. Also note that it is in a document that is, in many ways, more important than the Declaration of Independence.

The DoI basically told the Crown to piss off. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land, superceding all other laws. In fact, Article 6 specifically states this as an inarguable fact.

With the presence of article 6 and the preamble in there, and with health care not being able to be afforded by a significant number of Americans, the government might well be obligated to provide health care.

Just some nitpicks and thoughts.

[AdminAssistant]

I'm sorry that someone isn't going to get an MRI because they don't have health insurance. I really am. But we cannot afford it. This is for the greater good in my opinion.

Greater good? Who makes that decision? Doctors, Insurance brokers, you, me? Rich people are the only ones who deserve decent health care?

Reminds me of a quote from Dickens, "Well, if they're going to die, they'd better do it, and decrease the surplus population!"