The *Problem* with socialized healthcare.

[Rapscallion]

A simple question for those against socialised (pretty much anything). Why is it so bad for the US to do this, and send their economy spinning out of control, yet it's ok in other countries? What's the relevant significant difference??

I think it's culture. The US has a different culture, which is why laxer gun control works there, but wouldn't work in the UK.

When we brought the NHS in over here, there was a period of adjustment. Sure, it hit peoples' wages by a small percentage every week, but people got used to it. Same as any other tax.

I think it could work given time for the population to adjust. It would probably require an opt-out for those with existing health insurance, for a limited time (a decade or so), but it could be managed if handled right.

Rapscallion

[DesignFox]

Yippee for those of you fortunate enough to have good medical coverage.

I went for a year without medical coverage and thank the many deities, nothing bad happened to me in that span of time.

Most insurance companies will not cover the damage or illness that befell you if the condition existed before you signed on to their insurance package.

I have worked part time jobs, and nearly all of them deny their employees benefits. If you work, you can't get government assistance because you make too much money- at least, as a single, 20 something year old woman who just got out of college you do.

Now, if I'd have had a kid- that would be a different story. THEN I could get coverage for myself and my child. HOW a woman is supposed to work as a single mother, I've no idea.

Since I would rather work and contribute to society, I am being punished.

I SEARCHED for individual health care. I was willing to pay for it out of my own pocket. A SHITTY plan would have cost me at least $400 a month. And most of that coverage was all for preventative. It did not cover ambulance costs, and made me pay a significant amount out of pocket for hospital costs.

Additionally, COBRA is fucking outrageously expensive.

When I DID work full time, and had to leave and find another job (personal reasons which I won't get into- no I didn't get fired) in order to continue the shitty coverage I had at that job, I was expected to pay upwards of $500 a month!

Considering that most full time jobs make you wait 6 months before they will insure you...THNK ABOUT THAT. And that's if you are lucky and find a new full time job, with benefits immediately!

I mean, sure, as a young 20 something, if I got hurt I could declare bankruptcy and go on charity care. That sounds fucking great. Let me cost the tax-payers, ruin my credit so I can never get anywhere in life and hope to god I'm not disabled so I can at least go back to work and contribute to society once again.

I can do as I've done in the past and let a simple "sniffle" turn into a wracking cough. I can let my virus spread to my co-workers because I can't afford to miss a day of work, but I also can't afford to go to the doctor, and can't afford the medicine if I COULD afford the office visit....I can go another 3 years without an eye exam because I can't afford to see the optometrist... while I did purchase my contact lenses I still can't afford new lenses for my glasses. (I don't have a vision plan).

Oh, and the last time I needed work done at the dentist- $150 to fill a simple cavity. That doesn't include what I pay every 6 months for x-rays and a cleaning. AND that doesn't take into account that a couple years ago (thankfully my Dad was willing to help me pay for this) I had to have all my fillings replaced and a cap put on one tooth which cost me $1500.

My current job offers medical (thank god- it's not great but I won't go bankrupt) but I do not have vision or dental. If I were unlucky enough to be unemployed, I'm only 27, so still too young for medicare.

So just fuck me, right?

I'd like someone to come up with something better than this. I don't know what on earth we need to do, but I consider myself lucky to have what I have, and lucky to be able to afford what I can.

What about the people that can't? What about people like me who are young and trying to be productive members of society, but are hindered by the horrendous cost of healthcare?

What about the people who get struck by cars and now find themselves in horrible debt and can't get out? Sure, maybe the drivers insurance SHOULD have covered the expenses (or at least some of them). And sure, we are all by law required to have insurance if we drive a motor vehicle, but that doesn't mean everyone abides by the law- what if you are struck by an uninsured driver?

So, fuck those people, too, huh?

There HAS GOT to be a better way.

Not all of live near the Mayo clinic, or are fortunate enough to have a parent that works there. Not that it would matter after you reach a certain age.

Not all of us work for the military/want to work for the military, or have family members who work for the military and so get free healthcare (and I really don't begrudge them that- I'm just making a point).

Not all of us live in an area that even has decent hospitals. The closest hospital to me is shitty as hell. I hope to all the heavens that I never get hurt around here and have to be subjected to their treatment. And the SCAMMING that goes on in the ER! (personal experience my dad had- thankfully he was coherent when the ambulance picked him up/dropped him off or he'd be out a few hundred dollars)

Our system needs help.

[Fashion Lad!]

apparently bothering to read the articles about the $34 trillion problem is below you guys. If you had bothered to read it you'd say "oh, they're doomed" because we are. The proble is people think they can sell bills (to china) print money and solve all these silly money problems. The $34 trillion problem is not political in anyway. This is straight truth coming from the guy who audits the books of The US Government. Honestly, there are a lot of other programs I'd cut too. But, you guys only see me as not wanting people to have health care and that's not true. If there was a way we could cover everyone and not put the burden on the rich. I still want the people being covered to pay in. That means no EIC where people who don't pay in to begin with get more money.

Once again, we cannot afford to have socialized healthcare. Absolutely cannot unless ALL Americans are willing to pay about 40 cents on every dollar they earn to the federal government. And, before you guys jump down my throat, I advise you to really look at those articles. They are A-Political

[DesignFox]

I'm not saying that a $34 trillion dollar dept isn't a problem. It is. Maybe we need to restructure WHAT it is we are investing in.

Bailing out failing corporations and their CEO's comes to mind as ONE questionable expense....

[Rapscallion]

apparently bothering to read the articles about the $34 trillion problem is below you guys.

What would you regard as an acceptable cost?

What value would you place on a human life?

Rapscallion

[Fashion Lad!]

The average person that draws social security, draws more than 10 times more than they put in. Medicare (government healthcare) is the *main* reason why we're in this mess. The money is already going into a system that is making us bankrupt. READ the article. Reas it all before you dispute it. Government healthcare is why we're facing this $34 trillion problem. Human life is currently now $34 trillion that we cannot afford. There is no money. When the interest payments are due, should we just print more money?

Offer a solution that actually addresses the real reason why we cannot have socialized healthcare in the grand format like many people want here? How do you add to a system that is the main reason for the $34 trillion and make it affordable Please, I'm open to suggestions. Go to recovery.org and tell Obama your idea.

[Rapscallion]

Again, I ask what is an acceptable amount to spend on this sort of project? What price do you put on a human life?

When did I say I wanted a grand format of US healthcare? It's not even my country - I was citing examples from the UK, since I happen to live here.

Rapscallion

[Seshat]

But, you guys only see me as not wanting people to have health care and that's not true. If there was a way we could cover everyone and not put the burden on the rich.

Medicare (government healthcare) is the *main* reason why we're in this mess.

Offer a solution that actually addresses the real reason why we cannot have socialized healthcare in the grand format like many people want here?

It is possible that the US has waited too long, and is essentially doomed. However, it's possible that it hasn't.

My solution: stop or reduce spending on things which do not improve the main money-making assets of any society. Audit the things which do improve the money-making assets of the society, then increase spending on them.

What are the money-making assets of society? The populace and the resources.

Where do I perceive the US' national capital going (as in actual resources, not necessarily paper resources)?
Excessive salaries for those who can claim them, legislative proposals with no purpose but grandstanding for the politicians who make them, an excess of layers of government (do you really need so many local school boards?)... a whole bunch of places like that.

Trim all of that, and you'd be surprised how much real wealth suddenly becomes available to spend on improving the health of the potentially-working populace.
Give all your people a full health workover, and you'd be surprised how many previously unable-to-work people are now available to work: which means a much lower welfare bill, and an increase in taxpayers. More money!

[AdminAssistant]

Wasteful government spending....hmmm....

How about NASA? A friend told me that they recently lost $300 Million when they botched a satellite launch. As much as I appreciate what NASA has done for us, and think we should keep it, do we really need to be worried about Mars right now?

I would argue that the two wars overseas, and certainly the situation in Iraq, are wastes of American money and need to end - but that's for a different thread, methinks.

And there are certainly other places to trim some fat. We need to be focusing on education, healthcare, social services, and the economy right now.

[Evandril]

Military spending, and other 'pork' measures should be cut *LONG* before medical coverage is. We do *NOT* refuse treatment to people in need of it...so the person denied a $100 checkup ends up having a serious medical problem that costs $100,000...With a grand savings to the government of negative $99,900. That's the part people don't mention, when they talk about how we can't 'afford' it. Of course, when people refuse to get checkups and the like (I dislike them myself...but being in the military, they are not optional...and I agree with that, honestly) cause similar problems, but that's a seperate issue.

A country can survive without anything...except it's people. I challenge you to show me a nation that does not care for it's people, who is a player on the international scene. Even China, reviled as it is, provides medical care for it's people.

[daleduke17]

A country can survive without anything...except it's people. I challenge you to show me a nation that does not care for it's people, who is a player on the international scene. Even China, reviled as it is, provides medical care for it's people.

The United States. The USA doesn't give a flying damn about the citizenry around here (except once or twice every four years) then goes off and gives and gives to every other country in the world.

[Seshat]

The United States. The USA doesn't give a flying damn about the citizenry around here (except once or twice every four years) then goes off and gives and gives to every other country in the world.

Again, I perceive providing aid to other populations as a positive thing, though more optional for a society than tending to its own citizens.

I think there's a lot of waste the USA can cut before it should cut disaster relief efforts (for everyone*) or healthcare (for its own people).

Development aid I'm more iffy about: so much of it gets misdirected or misused that I see careful auditing as necessary there. But with proper auditing, I see development aid (in the cynical and long-term view) as developing a suitable market for the society's products.


* No, I'm not saying the USA should be carrying the burden of disaster relief for everyone. I think the USA should take a fair share of disaster relief, along with everyone else. How much is fair? Per capita GDP could be a rough rule of thumb.
Or a 'who has the expertise' set of rules: like Aussieland sending California firefighters with lots of experience in Eucalypt fires, or the Dutch providing experts in low-lying land reclamation to help with preventing a repeat of New Orleans.
Or simple proximity: New Zealand sent us (Australia) extra personnel when we had our severe fires last month.

[AdminAssistant]

then goes off and gives and gives to every other country in the world.

Well, the ones that we like or can in some way profit from later. Which explains why we're fiddling in the Middle East (mmmm, oil) but in many ways ignoring the various problems in Africa - Sudan, Darfur, massive government corruption in many countries, AIDS crisis still raging.

Or the ones with political idealologies that match ours. I'm working on a show about Cuban-Americans, and we had a guest speaker who immigrated here from Cuba. He went back in the 80's, and the stories he told us about near-starving family members were heartbreaking, as well as the fact that he wasn't able to go see his relatives when they were on their deathbeds. Gave a whole new perspective on Cuban/American relations.

[daleduke17]

Well, the ones that we like or can in some way profit from later. Which explains why we're fiddling in the Middle East (mmmm, oil) but in many ways ignoring the various problems in Africa - Sudan, Darfur, massive government corruption in many countries, AIDS crisis still raging.

Darfur...what a mistake for the US to get involved in.

[Boozy]

How about starting another thread on foreign aid? There's many directions that topic could take us, so we're apt to get sidetracked rather quickly. It deserves it's own thread.