The *Problem* with socialized healthcare.

[protege]

Getting back to healthcare...I agree that something needs to be done. However, I *don't* think the answer is to throw more money at the problem, and hope it goes away. Nor do I think that making the rich pay for it is the answer either. I have a feeling that when Obama proposed his "soak the rich" campaign, he was simply feeding off the hatred that many have for Wall Street

[AFPheonix]

I'm not sure what you mean by "soak the rich".
All he's doing is returning tax levels on the rich back to what they were pre-bush era. That's hardly a huge burden to bear, considering they were bearing it juuuust fine before.

[protege]

Well, considering all the rhetoric flying around CNBC today...you'd think he was declaring some sort of class warfare--"redistribution of wealth" being a popular phrase right now

[Evandril]

Well, considering all the rhetoric flying around CNBC today...you'd think he was declaring some sort of class warfare--"redistribution of wealth" being a popular phrase right now

*gets out his Robin Hood hat and bow*

...What??

I still wonder if a more 'elective' tax would help...Not as much how much you pay, but earmarking your money to what *you* want it to go towards. I'd happily pay more in taxes if I could pick what was done with it.

[Boozy]

This poor thread seems determined to go off-topic.

Tax policy is yet another fascinating topic that could take us in many directions. I don't think we have a thread wholly dedicated to the subject, so feel free to start one.

Have we said all we need to say about socialized healthcare?

[IDrinkaRum]

Hmmm .. how about this? Just a thought or 2 or something like that.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. We wind up paying for it somehow. Either in the money the citizens will be forced to pay. Watching our government dollars go down the drain to sustain it. Or even by paying because we won't be able to get the better doctors, the better tests, etc., etc.

Also, someone mentioned that we Americans seem to not like the idea of Socialized Healthcare in America, but are okay with it in other countries. When I hear stories of the long wait times for services, or that doctors/dentists are going into private practice therefore making it harder for those on the socialized healthcare system to find competent people, I wonder: Why do these people still put up with it? It can't be worth it, can it? I think any country with socialized healthcare is completely and utterly insane.

[the_std]

Also, someone mentioned that we Americans seem to not like the idea of Socialized Healthcare in America, but are okay with it in other countries. When I hear stories of the long wait times for services, or that doctors/dentists are going into private practice therefore making it harder for those on the socialized healthcare system to find competent people, I wonder: Why do these people still put up with it? It can't be worth it, can it? I think any country with socialized healthcare is completely and utterly insane.

I think you hold this opinion because you've never lived in a country with socialized health care.

My ex-boyfriend is an epileptic, highly susceptible to grand mal seizures. The force of his seizures is so great that, every time he has one, he dislocates both of his shoulders. I couldn't put them back in place myself, so every time he had a seizure, I had to take him to the ER. Six times in the eight months we lived together. We were both students, living off of less than $12,000 a year. Can you imagine the debt he would be in now if it weren't for socialized health care? We got it for free. And we were in and out of the ER in six hours each time. That includes x-rays, medication reviews, painkillers and the procedure to put his shoulders back.

There are some wait times on non-emergency things, such as surgeries and appointments, but if you have a problem, it is fixed right now, and for the cost of a bit of raised taxes. It really isn't as much as you think.

I personally think that any person who objects to a socialized health care system is completely and utterly insane, because not only are they hurting themselves, but they're hurting their entire country.

[AFPheonix]

For every story I hear about someone having to wait for a procedure, I hear 3 more excellent things about socialized care. Further, most of the bad stories are generated from Canada, which puts fewer funds into their national health plan than other countries, and most of the complaints come from people in very rural areas where there are fewer specialists dealing with a larger area.
What also cracks me up is that very often complainers (I'm related to many of them) tend to gloss over the good things they have from their benefit. I noticed that when I was up there visiting last summer. They bitched and moaned about stuff they had to pay for, and then glossed over the many benefits they received in kind.

We have to pay for our health care one way or another. Either it's to a private company that wastes it and acts as a roadblock to people needing care and not being able to afford it, or we pay government through taxes where at least everyone gets to have access to a basic level of care. I frankly would prefer the latter. Especially since it has been shown over and over that those in a nationalized plan pay less money overall and receive better care.
http://www.npr.org/news/specials/hea..._profiles.html

[Boozy]

What also cracks me up is that very often complainers (I'm related to many of them) tend to gloss over the good things they have from their benefit. I noticed that when I was up there visiting last summer. They bitched and moaned about stuff they had to pay for, and then glossed over the many benefits they received in kind.

You're absolutely right about this. Canadians love to bitch and moan about the health system. We sometimes forget how good we have it.

Incidentally, I don't think everyone here realizes that Canada has managed to provide universal and comprehensive health care for every single one of its citizens - and our tax rates are comparable to those of the US. This isn't about how much it costs, it's about priorities.

[Seshat]

When I hear stories of the long wait times for services, or that doctors/dentists are going into private practice therefore making it harder for those on the socialized healthcare system to find competent people, I wonder: Why do these people still put up with it? It can't be worth it, can it? I think any country with socialized healthcare is completely and utterly insane.

Because the long waits and the lack of competent people is the oddity, not the commonplace.

Yes, you have a long wait if you go to Emergency with a non-urgent problem, but that's the nature of the emergency room. And the one time I had to do it, we needed the use of the X-ray to detect whether it was serious, or non-serious masquerading as serious. As we were waiting for the X-ray to become available, we heard ambulance sirens. Shortly afterwards, a very nice and apologetic nurse told us they'd just got a very nasty accident in, and there'd be a long wait.
So my friend nipped over to the 7-11 and got some magazines. The staff dropped in from time to time to reassure us they hadn't forgotten us, and to check on my husband (the patient).
So yeah, long wait, but damn good reason for it. And handled very well. And it turned out that the problem was non-serious masquerading. So phew.


But I've been to a public hospital emergency room with urgent cases twice now. And both the heart attack and the overdose were made stable immediately-if-not-sooner.


There can also be a long wait to get on the patient list for the truly excellent general-practice (or 'family') doctors: but that's true no matter what the system. The difference with a public healthcare system is that the truly excellent doctors can be accessible to anyone, not just the rich.



A case study

My mentally ill friend needs medications which she's priced: in a private health care system, she'd be facing a $300/month bill for just one of her meds. In our health system, she pays about $5 for it.
Given the way health funds in the States work, we think she'd be unable to get coverage: pre-existing condition, unable to work, needs regular psych visits and occasional follow-up care, needs multiple psychoactive meds.

Here, she gets all of those, and can look after herself most of the time, is the primary carer for another disabled person, and does significant amounts of volunteer work (on a 'when she can' basis).


As near as we can tell, in the States, she'd be unable to get her meds or the psychiatric care she needs. Because of the lack of meds, she'd be unable to look after herself - even in a small way like paying rent - and we'd be unable to care for her. So without the meds, she'd be in a psychiatric hospital, in jail, or homeless.
Of those options, providing her meds, psych visits, welfare income and occasional care is cheaper than the psych hospital or jail.
It's difficult to price the cost of having her as a homeless person, because so many of those costs are hidden in costs of policing, public health (she'd be a disease vector), social morale, charity work (eg soup kitchens, shelters) and crime.
From an ethical point of view, I vastly prefer the not-homeless options.

Both jail and the psych hospital could get her healthy enough that they'd send her 'home' - where the once again couldn't afford the meds, would again descend into the illness, get out of control, and sent back through the revolving door into either psych or jail.

Treating her illness and making the treatment affordable to her seems to be the best of all options. She's doing useful work (caring for another disabled person, and volunteer work), she's tending herself and thus saving the State the cost of 24/7 nurses or wardens, and from a moral point of view, her quality of life is vastly superior to what it would be in all the other cases.


http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/index.php is a useful place to look for information on the options available to the severely mentally ill in America.

[Slytovhand]

I wonder: Why do these people still put up with it? It can't be worth it, can it? I think any country with socialized healthcare is completely and utterly insane.

The simple, quantifiable, answer is that you may hear thousands (perhaps tens of thousands, depending on country) of complaints, yet you don't hear the millions (or tens or hundreds of millions or perhaps even billions) of 'good' that it does for those countries. Which equates to how it's handled, not the system itself... "it could be better", not "we're better off without it".

[AFPheonix]

Because the long waits and the lack of competent people is the oddity, not the commonplace.

Yes, you have a long wait if you go to Emergency with a non-urgent problem, but that's the nature of the emergency room.

There's excessive waits in this country, too. I've lost count of how many patients come rolling into my pharmacy who have had to spend pretty much all day at the ER. This is true for insured and uninsured. I myself have had to cool my heels for several hours when I broke my wrist.
It's the same story at private urgent cares, too. Private doctors often are booked enough that you can't get a visit in right away. I know this because I get to listen to patients moan about it when they need refills and have to beg their doctors to get a supply of their maintenance meds until they can be seen for their annual or for labwork. I suspect this is not unique just to my area.
I've also witnessed some of the local non-profit clinics who deal with uninsured or underinsured have to turn away patients because they're so overloaded now. The situation we're in is simply untenable.

[bigred]

Perhaps if people stopped referring to it as 'socialised healthcare', which no one has ever done here, they would start to see the benefits of it. Perhaps 'caring healthcare', 'Christian healthcare', or whatever, they would start to see the aims. It is to stop people in pain from suffering. Or perhaps they would like to see us go back to the period prior to the 20th century where people with diseases begged on the streets or were put in workhouses?

Remember, the countries that have this system haven't fallen over yet. More than 30 years here and counting.

[Boozy]

"Christian healthcare" is brilliant. You could really start selling it to conservative voters. Unfortunately, some liberal voters might be a little turned off, unless they're hip to the scam.

[DesignFox]

"Christian healthcare" is brilliant. You could really start selling it to conservative voters. Unfortunately, some liberal voters might be a little turned off, unless they're hip to the scam.

I'd be hip to the scam, except if we call it "Christian" so we can get the nutjobs votes, then we have to follow the nutjobs rules...

Personally, I like being able to obtain birth control...etc. (Birth control is expensive, but it's hella cheaper than having a kid)