Kid Suspended For Refusing to Say the Pledge.

[Rageaholic]

story here

There are a couple of things that bother me about this.

1. The whole notion that if someone doesn't do this or that they are less of a patriot. If we're a free country, no one should have to say anything.

2. The teacher/principle probably wouldn't try this shit on an adult. They must have figured that since he was a kid, he wouldn't stand up for his rights. I hate this mentality so much. These are the type of adults who think "because I said so" is an acceptable reason.

[Greenday]

My friend and I decided junior year of high school to stop doing the Pledge. My history teacher (who taught my first class of the day) disagreed with us and threatened us with detention. We both declined and told him to spare himself the effort, we wouldn't bother showing. Two of the brightest kids in the school. I was never in trouble and while my friend was a druggie, he didn't cause trouble like most other kids. His next solution was to say we didn't have to do it if we wrote essays on why we didn't want to. We declined as we felt we didn't have to justify it. It's our right to say it or not say it and no one can force us to. Plus it wasn't in the school rules (The school rules specifically stated you didn't have to say it, just stand and remain silent). He called my mom anyway (who gave me shit) and surprise, surprise, life continued on as normal. We didn't turn into anarchists or terrorists.

It's an utterly ridiculous concept. What other country forces its youth to recite such a thing? No sensible nation that I know of. It's the kind of thing you'd expect from Nazi Germany or some totalitarian government. I love the United States of America. I support the American government. I just think the whole thing is ridiculous.

[lordlundar]

Looks like in the 55 odd years since his death, some states still follow McCarthyism practices. I'd say I'd be surprised, but I'd be lying.

[Anthony K. S.]

I've said this before and I will say it again :

What could you possibly hope to accomplish by ordering somebody to take a loyalty oath?

If your heart isn't behind the words you're saying, then they're just words. They don't mean anything.

If a student is forced, under threat of suspension, to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance ... What exactly do these school officials think that's going to do?

Do they think while he's saying the Pledge, he's going to magically start to feel pride in the words, realize how wrong he was to refuse, and say them with conviction?

Give me a break. All this is going to do is make him even more hostile to the Pledge of Allegiance.

I note that a number of people, including legal experts, have said that the school policy likely violates the Supreme Court decision, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette.

The Court ruled that forcing students to salute the American flag or say the Pledge of Allegiance was a violation of the free speech protection of the First Amendment.

In the majority opinion, Justice Robert Jackson stated :


"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."


I find it touchingly poetic that the decision was written by Justice Robert Jackson, who was also the chief prosecutor for the U.S. delegation to the war crimes tribunal in Nuremburg.

Permitting free speech and expression vs. forcing people to display a love of one's country is, in my view, one of the most fundamental elements that distinguishes a democracy (United States) from a totalitarian state (Nazi Germany).

Two other justices in the majority wrote :


"Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds ..."


It is truly sad how many people, even today, still do not understand this.

[crashhelmet]

When i was in elementary school, oh so many moons ago, I remember kids being able to opt out of saying the pledge. The reason given was that they were Jehovah's Witnesses and it went against their religious beliefs.

[HotelKatz]

I vaguely remember a book where a kid just one day refused to say the pledge and started humming some patriotic song, just to spite the teacher as a prank.

I think the teacher wound up being fired and having their name dragged through mud. The kid wound up regretting it because their prank wound up spinning out of control.

I think the book ended with the kid transferring to another school. The kids and the teachers there thought the kid was being patriotic by choosing a song instead of saying the pledge. The kid broke down, crying that he didn't know the words to either the song or the pledge.

[Rageaholic]

Well said Anthony: It's the same reason I think forced apologies are bull. They're not going to be genuine so why force it. Sincerity cannot be forced.

I also despise those who argue that because we could be in North Korea or some other shit hole we should just shut and say the pledge. If we're forcing people to say the pledge, how are we much different from those countries? These people make no sense and just come across as nationalist zealots.

[MrsEclipse]

I vaguely remember a book where a kid just one day refused to say the pledge and started humming some patriotic song, just to spite the teacher as a prank.

I think the teacher wound up being fired and having their name dragged through mud. The kid wound up regretting it because their prank wound up spinning out of control.

I think the book ended with the kid transferring to another school. The kids and the teachers there thought the kid was being patriotic by choosing a song instead of saying the pledge. The kid broke down, crying that he didn't know the words to either the song or the pledge.

Sounds like "Nothing but the Truth" by Avi

[kaycivine]

When I was in high school, I started paying attention to what our government was doing and was disappointed in it. So I wouldn't say the pledge. A math teacher created a fair truce, though, in asking students to at least stand, if not for our pledge then to the respect of our soldiers currently fighting. As my cousins and uncles were veterans, I thought that was fair.


I ended up saying the pledge again eventually, just without "Under God."

[Titi]

When i was in elementary school, oh so many moons ago, I remember kids being able to opt out of saying the pledge. The reason given was that they were Jehovah's Witnesses and it went against their religious beliefs.

Yes, they did. I used that not to stand up for the pledge from 5th grade through high school. If questioned I would simply state that it was against my religion and no one questioned it. I just wanted to sit.

[DGoddess]

story here

There are a couple of things that bother me about this.

1. The whole notion that if someone doesn't do this or that they are less of a patriot. If we're a free country, no one should have to say anything.

2. The teacher/principle probably wouldn't try this shit on an adult. They must have figured that since he was a kid, he wouldn't stand up for his rights. I hate this mentality so much. These are the type of adults who think "because I said so" is an acceptable reason.

Reminds me of yet another reason I hated the HS I went to: at pep rallies or other school functions where we would assemble in the gym the students would recite the school pledge - with their left arm held out and right hand over the heart.

Imagine an entire gym full of teens doing this . . . it looked like one of those old time Third Reich meetings with everyone chanting "Heil Hitler." It was totally appalling IMO

And I would steadfastly REFUSE to do this. I would stand there quietly out of respect (more like embarassment and wanting to crawl underneath the building where I wouldn't be seen) but not once would I submit to that mentality.

At one pep rally, a teacher actually attempted to get me to raise my arm. I quickly drew back and gave her a death stare and told her that if she touched me, my mother would show up on campus before the cops. The teacher thankfully backed off and never attempted that again (and this was a teacher who I didn't even have a class with.)

10th grade I got out of going to those detested pep rallies . . . my French teacher realized quickly I wasn't one who felt comfortable and would let me stay in the classroom. If anyone asked, I was making up schoolwork. I was eternally grateful to her for that.

But there is supposed to be freedom of choice in this country . . . which sadly is being taken away little by little. If the student in the news article didn't want to recite the Pledge, then that's individual choice. Suspending him is only violating his civil liberties IMO and the ACLU could step in and take this to court.

[Racket_Man]

Imagine an entire gym full of teens doing this . . . it looked like one of those old time Third Reich meetings with everyone chanting "Heil Hitler." It was totally appalling IMO

.

(I know I have posted this before)

and for a while here in the US that was almost a requirement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute



Yeah there will be those who say it is NOT like the Heil Hitler thing BUT it sure does to me.

[s_stabeler]

functionally, there IS no difference. The Hitler salute was designed to foster loyalty to Hitler, while the Bellamy salute was designed to foster loyalty to America. Specifically, mindless loyalty.

[DGoddess]

functionally, there IS no difference. The Hitler salute was designed to foster loyalty to Hitler, while the Bellamy salute was designed to foster loyalty to America. Specifically, mindless loyalty.

Which smacks of mind control if you ask me. I for one prefer to have my mind free to myself and not run by some government entity under the guise of "patriotism."

I think this song says it all:

Another Brick In The Wall - Pink Floyd

[Gravekeeper]

I have never understood the pledge thing and always found it kind of disturbing to be blunt. That there are people who think a child should be punished for not reciting allegience to their country every morning is downright frightening.