Elliot Rodger...The Ultimate "Nice Guy."

[Jester]

So by now most of you have heard of that fucknut Elliot Rodger out in Santa Barbara who killed 6 people and injured 13 because he was a 22 year old virgin who'd never been kissed.

I don't know how many of you have bothered to watch some of the videos he posted online. I have. Yes, his last one was disturbing, but all of them, including that last one, were more pathetic than anything. Feel free to go watch them (though be warned, they go from creepy to downright disturbing), but here are the highlights:

"Life is unfair. Women are cruel. I've never had sex, or even been kissed, and it's all the fault of all these women, who didn't give me any sex or attention, though I clearly deserve it, since I'm good looking, a gentleman, nice, dress nice, have nice sunglasses, and drive a bitchin' BMW. I can't understand why they're having sex and dating all these guys that are clearly less amazing than me, so clearly I'm gonna have to show them how awesome I am by killing as many of them and their brutish unworthy boyfriends as I can."

This is the "Nice Guy" syndrome drawn to its ultimate psychopathic conclusion. And make no mistake, Rodger is a psychopath. Or sociopath. Whatever. I'm not sure the distinction matters in this instance. But we can't just dismiss what he did because he was nuts. He WAS nuts, but we should still look closer.

There are genuine nice guys who don't always do well with the ladies. They may bitch about the unfairness of it all, and how the Universe/world/life isn't fair, as they're are far more deserving of girls in general or a specific girl in particular than the guy(s) said girl(s) ended up giving their affection, but overall, these guys only blame the unfairness of Life itself, which we're all familiar with, and have blamed for various maladies in our own lives from time to time. I've been there. I've been this type of nice guy. And eventually, after a bit of venting, gnashing of teeth and rending of hair (and copious amounts of alcohol), I got over it and moved the fuck on with my life.

Then there are "Nice Guys." We've talked about these douchebags before. These are not nerds, but wannabe nerds, which is a scary concept in itself. These fuckheads cants believe there's any reason why girls aren't falling all over them, so they rationalize it be saying they're "Nice Guys" and that, clearly, women have no real interest in guys who are nice, because these "Nice Guys" aren't making any romantic or (more commonly) sexual headway with the object(s) of their affection. And I use the word object(s) quite intentionally, as that is how these "Nice Guys" view women: as objects, targets to aim for, and prizes to be won. And Hollywood, while not to blame for this, isn't helping with the preponderance of "hopeless nerd gets holy shit hawt girl against all logical odds" movies. The problem with these guys is not just that they can't let their "Life isn't fair" thing go, but also that they don't blame Life or the Universe in general for being unfair, but women, both individually and as a group. WOMEN are denying them what they clearly deserve. What other reason could there be for these "Nice Guys" not getting laid/getting girlfriends?

And that brings us to Elliot Rodger. His philosophy was the exact same as the "Nice Guys" above. The ONLY difference is that he was a violent psychopath who decided the only way to show these girls the error of their ways was to kill as many of them as possible. The typical "Nice Guy" would have proven his superiority to the women who scorned them by finding a hotter, more awesome girlfriend. (Or would have just continued wallowing in their misery and venting about the unfairness of women.)

The point is, both typical "Nice Guys" and Psycho Elliot blamed WOMEN for their lack of success with women, ignoring two basic things:
1. Maybe, just maybe, women didn't hook up with them because of their pisspoor attitude.
2. Life is often unfair. Taking it personally doesn't change the fact that everyone deals with unfairness in their lives.

Now, if you have the temerity and fortitude to watch Rodger's videos, perhaps you'll come across some of the same conclusions I did about his particular case:

--From what I could gather from his (scarily coherent and chillingly lucid) commentary, it seemed he thought women would just flock to him, adore him, and fuck him just because he was attractive, dressed right, drove a nice car, and was nice.....without him actually making any effort. I can't say for certain, but it seemed to me that he never actually approached any women, or if he did, that he never made any attempt at romance or intimacy, assuming it would merely come to him.

--Women may have not desired him or made any moves on him because, at least in the videos, he's fucking creepy. Not over the top creepy, but definitely creepy.

--Women may have not desired him or made any moves on him because he was a whiny little bitch. At one point in my life, I was a whiny little bitch, too. I didn't get laid. I stopped being so whiny and bitchy, at least in public. Guess what? I got laid more. Shocking how that works. Did it work all the time? No, of course not. But I had better odds by coming across as a guy with some amount of self-respect and confidence than as a whiny little bitch, or as an entitled little fuck that felt the world owed him something.

--He clearly hated other guys, who he felt were all inferior to him, especially if they had what he considered to be hot girlfriends. I have at times in my life wondered what certain girls saw in certain guys, sure, but to hate ALL guys with hot girlfriends and ALL couples just because I wasn't getting any love or action, as Rodger did? Never would have occurred to me.

In the end, Elliot Rodger is the logical conclusion for the "Nice Guys" who feel that women owe them sex, dates, and/or loves simply for being decent guys. When women don't come through in their part of the bargain, they clearly deserve to be punished.

So for any "Nice Guys" who feel that women owe them something just because they're not assholes, here's a very simple, very direct message:

No they don't. Women don't owe you anything. Life doesn't owe you anything. And if a woman is not attracted to you, move the fuck on, and find one that is. And grow a pair, and approach her, and talk to her. You will get shot down more often than you succeed. But if you just stand there being "nice" expecting some sexual or romantic reward for it, you're going to be disapointed, and you're going to grow more and more bitter. And eventually, you might be the next Elliot Rodger. Which means you're going to go from a guy who's not getting any attention to a guy who is hated, who is reviled, whose own family has said they will not mourn his passing, and who is dead.

In other words, enough of this "Nice Guy" shit. Moping and venting is one thing. Blaming women for your failure with women is idiotic. It's YOUR failure, not THEIRS.

GET OVER IT, AND MOVE THE FUCK ON.

And by the way, Elliot Rodger, my only regret with you is that I didn't get a chance to meet you before you did all this. Because you seriously deserved an ass-kicking. I don't know that that would have altered the outcome, but as you were a coward, who knows? It might have.

Jester OUT.

[Gravekeeper]

I haven't watched any of his videos. I'm embarrassed enough for our gender just watching the fallout on Twitter. Which seemed to trigger a wave of other Nice Guys rushing to their own defence and amazingly trying to make this about them. Rather than the women who have had to suffer at their hands.

Just a protip for some guys out there: The proper response to a woman sharing a deeply personal story of sexual harrassment or victimization is not: "Wow, that guy was an asshole. But don't worry! I on the other hand am super nice and there is room available on my dick."

[anakhouri]

I read a commentary by another gentleman who said basically the same thing, Jester, but he placed heavier blame on this culture that claims you can get the girl if you're nice/wear her down enough/are tenacious.

He didn't add that this culture is everywhere, and lots of people are exposed to it, but only a few idiots are actually dumb enough to believe it.

Our culture is constantly telling us all kinds of shit, but you have to be smart enough to figure out what's true and what's exaggeration, or outright lies.

On Facebook a friend posted, 'Oh my God, these women were killed because they were women!' which is true in a way, but that makes it sound like all women are constantly targeted by men, simply for being women. No, in my mind these women (and men, as it was later discovered) because one fuckwit, who appears to be in the minority, assumed he had a right to female attention.

[Panacea]

Elliot Roger is the ultimate Entitlement Whore. He was a spoiled little brat who thought the Universe owed him whatever he wanted, and that he did not have to work for anything. He resented his father for not being rich, thinking that money buys you everything (it doesn't buy, it only rents).

There are actually CS type of websites where these guys hang out and bitch about women. Roger was not the exception to the rule; he is part of a big crowd of men who have no clue about what relationships and love are really about. Hint; sex is only part of the deal. They call themselves "Pick up artists" and convince themselves on how cool they are with women and how women who reject them are frigid bitches who deserve to die.

In short, Roger had plenty of validation for his twisted "thinking" before he went on his rampage.

I don't know what can be done to get rid of this sick mentality. And the opposite side of the coin also needs to be addressed: women who view men as meal tickets, or who think they unworthy of a man who is a partner and think taking abuse is part of a normal relationship . . . or who think they can "fix" broken men.

In other words, the emphasis needs to be on normality between men and women, and not the behavior of one or the other alone.

[Gravekeeper]

I read a commentary by another gentleman who said basically the same thing, Jester, but he placed heavier blame on this culture that claims you can get the girl if you're nice/wear her down enough/are tenacious.

He didn't add that this culture is everywhere, and lots of people are exposed to it, but only a few idiots are actually dumb enough to believe it.

This guy isn't an idiot, he was a sociopath/psychotic. Thats why his manifesto and videos are so unsettling. He's not some rambling moron, he's perfectly lucid and completely believes what he's saying. Culture isn't the big problem here, although American gun culture probably didn't help with its glorification of firearms and he ultimately held up guns as the ultimate sexual equalizer to bring retribution upon woman kind. It wasn't until he first fired a gun that he went from bitter basement dwelling asshole to actively plotting mass murder. His feelings on guns through out his manifesto are near orgasmic.

It was after he touched and fired his first gun that he began to shift into something truly terrifying. Prior to that he would verbally harass women and couples on campus on occasion, and his friends and family had to talk him down from it on several occasions. He was also in long term therapy.

AFTER he purchased his first gun he was so gleefully alpha male empowered he started drinking more and getting bolder in his attacks. He crashed a party and proceeded to try and throw several women off a second floor balcony. This was a few months before the shooting too. Which seriously begs the question how in the flying fucking hell was he able to purchase 3 guns?

He's had issues since he was 6-7 years old and in the months leading up to his killing spree he became ever increasingly more violent and bold. Its not that the police didn't know about it either. Even his family notified the police on a few occasions as well as prior to the attack.

I mean if you have a papertrail of your psychosis going back like 10 fucking years, how are you not on some sort of list to prevent you from owning firearms?

[Panacea]

California is considering a change to the law that will make it easier for family members to stop the mentally ill from buying guns. It's called a temporary gun violence restraining order. You have to get it from a judge, but basically if you tell a judge a person is dangerous or making threats, etc you can get a TRO that not only prevents gun purchases, but requires the person to surrender any guns they have.

It's temporary; it expires and has to be re-evaluated in order to extend it.

I like the idea, but it needs to include a provision to let police check recent gun purchases, which they can do by looking for recent background checks. A TGVRO with such a provision would have let the cops check for recent gun purchases, and then search Rogers home to seize the guns, and the massacre would have been prevented.

[s_stabeler]

California is considering a change to the law that will make it easier for family members to stop the mentally ill from buying guns. It's called a temporary gun violence restraining order. You have to get it from a judge, but basically if you tell a judge a person is dangerous or making threats, etc you can get a TRO that not only prevents gun purchases, but requires the person to surrender any guns they have.

It's temporary; it expires and has to be re-evaluated in order to extend it.

I like the idea, but it needs to include a provision to let police check recent gun purchases, which they can do by looking for recent background checks. A TGVRO with such a provision would have let the cops check for recent gun purchases, and then search Rogers home to seize the guns, and the massacre would have been prevented.

I can guarantee you that if anything like that was ever seriously proposed, the gun nuts would decry it as "they're taking our guns!!!Second amendment!!!"- it's a good idea, but it'd never happen.

[BlaqueKatt]

<pancea's post about TGVRO>

OMG-yes, this should be a national thing! (I say this as a firearm owner)

Though there should also be something requiring treatment or confinement* for an attempt to purchase while under the TGVRO, if it's not in there already.

As unless the potentially violent person has been diagnosed and treated(by a psychiatrist), and the treatment reported, it's not on a background check. And according to one article, ER's mother had called the police to investigate him a month ago, and they saw "nothing wrong" with his videos

*akin to a 72 hour emergency hold for persons deemed a threat to themselves or others

[TheHuckster]

I've only skimmed through his "manifesto" as I have better things to do with my life than read some nut's autobiography in excruciating detail, but one thing I got from it was in some ways, his experiences did sort of resemble mine when I was his age. The things he probably said to girls was probably, on the surface, "nice" things, but I'm sure he emitted an off-putting aura that something wasn't right. People pick up on that, and it's not just in relationships or dating, but with friends, colleagues, and other social things. The difference between him and I are a.) I'm not a complete psycho homocidal nutjob and b.) He suffers from severe narcissism while I was the opposite: I simply wasn't sure of myself.

When I was his age, I wouldn't call myself a "nice guy" but I certainly was quiet, and was unsure of myself. As a result, I look back on the things I said to people I was attracted to and realize that my demeanor or gestures might be what one might call "creepy," even though for all intents and purposes, this was more due to my insecurity than actually being a creep. I never thought I was "owed" sex, although I had wished I was a little more confident so that I gave out a better vibe to spend quality time with a partner (not just sex, mind you, but fun activities that come with a loving relationship).

Although I was kind of upset that due to this I felt like girls might have otherwise been more attracted to me if I wasn't so damn insecure and got a bad impression of me, I placed the blame on nobody but myself. I'd often feel upset that, from the things I'd have in common with a crush and the jokes we shared, we were at least a fit for a date, but due to some jitters in my voice or a nervous freudian slip of sorts, I probably gave some off some vibes that might have weirded them out just enough to hold back. I hated myself for that.

After leaving college, either through maturity or just past experience, I learned to become more sure of myself, and now I have a loving wife, and better confidence in myself across most areas... without crossing into the other extreme of narcissism and having a superiority complex over everyone.

[blas87]

This is an extreme tragedy, but at least maybe now more people will realize that this guy and many others like them (maybe not all wired to kill but still not right in the head!) are NOT "nice" guys or the misunderstood guys that girls don't go for, and it's all we bitches' faults.

I can't believe anyone would come to his defense, or even see his point of view. No one has time for self pitying, whiney little bitches that think they are owed their dream girl because of what they have or how smart/great they are. Girls hate little bitches, not "nice" guys.

[Rageaholic]

When I was his age, I wouldn't call myself a "nice guy" but I certainly was quiet, and was unsure of myself. As a result, I look back on the things I said to people I was attracted to and realize that my demeanor or gestures might be what one might call "creepy," even though for all intents and purposes, this was more due to my insecurity than actually being a creep. I never thought I was "owed" sex, although I had wished I was a little more confident so that I gave out a better vibe to spend quality time with a partner (not just sex, mind you, but fun activities that come with a loving relationship).

As someone who has social anxiety, I can relate to that. And like you, I don't feel entitled to 'have' a girl, just like I wouldn't want someone to feel like they could 'have' me. I'm actually happy being introverted.

Seems like this psycho never actually made the effort. It's scary that I can relate to that, but unlike him, I've accepted that it's okay to be introverted and don't beat myself up. Especially since I haven't thought of going on any killing rampages. Nor did I write any manifestos wanting to go Hitler on women everywhere.

This is an extreme tragedy, but at least maybe now more people will realize that this guy and many others like them (maybe not all wired to kill but still not right in the head!) are NOT "nice" guys or the misunderstood guys that girls don't go for, and it's all we bitches' faults.

I can't believe anyone would come to his defense, or even see his point of view. No one has time for self pitying, whiney little bitches that think they are owed their dream girl because of what they have or how smart/great they are. Girls hate little bitches, not "nice" guys.

This POS actually blamed a childhood crush on his hatred of women. What's worse is some people are actually digging up her old facebook posts to paint her as a monster. I don't care if she was a bitch, she is not at all responsible for this guys rampage. It's not her fault that she ended up in some psychos manifesto.

The face that so many are giving any credence to a mass murderer is disturbing.

[Gravekeeper]

Oh good, there's actually a whole club of them and they're actually proud of dipshit's blaze of glory.

Oh, and it turns out the cops didn't actually bother to watch his videos after being warned about them. That's why they bought his story about the videos being just a "way to express himself" when they conducted a wellness check on him and his home. Right after that cop visit he took the videos down and didn't repost them till right before the shooting spree:

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Santa Barbara County sheriff's deputies who checked on Elliot Rodger three weeks before he killed six college students were aware he had posted disturbing videos but never viewed them before or after determining he was not a threat to himself or others, the department disclosed Thursday.

Because the deputies concluded Rodger was not a threat to himself or others, they never viewed the videos, searched his apartment or conducted a check to determine if he owned firearms, the statement said.

To quote him:

"I tactfully told them that it was all a misunderstanding and they finally left. If they had demanded to search my room that would have ended everything."

[Panacea]

I can guarantee you that if anything like that was ever seriously proposed, the gun nuts would decry it as "they're taking our guns!!!Second amendment!!!"- it's a good idea, but it'd never happen.

California has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation. If it could pass anywhere, it's in California.

The NRA has Congress in its pocket. It's going to have to be reform state by state.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

It amazes me (honestly) that every few years we have some crazy (in the sense that the person is either mentally ill or objectively delusional) do something horrible like this and every time it happens a rash of political activity springs up and exploits the event.

There's just a part of me that wishes people would just disabuse this notion we have of things being that significant politically when acted by one person. "That guy" (in this case Rodger) is that .000...1 percent of the population that doesn't go away regardless of the decade, century, or millenia. He's the end result of genetics, socialization, and circumstance and no matter how wrong he/she(extremely rare so far) is, they are brutal because that's what they have become. It's not a movie where it's a requirement that they have rationales that make sense to an audience.

I keep seeing the coverage focusing on his reasons and I keep thinking 9/11 bombers or Tim McVeigh or the Olympic Park Bomber or the guy that shot up the theaters in The Dark Knight Rises or ... hell, let's just have the list of school shootings in the United States. You'll notice the distinct lack of a list for school stabbings in the United States because those victims were obviously killed by people and not weapons. Politics... (and I'm a gun control proponent.)

I actually got really depressed this weekend over this case but for me it was simply this: what I find myself less and less able to deal with is the exploitation of tragedy by people for the purposes of cause aggrandizement. I know it happens and I know people think they're helping whether it be by starting #YesAllWomen or protecting us from scary immigrants of Middle Eastern descent (no these are not even remotely similar in cause quality).

I just wish for once something like this would happen and the world wouldn't make it "about them." Check that, I wish that the world would make the cause about honoring the victims. Because the only part of this crap that is "about us" is the part that we are responsible for these people's activation in multiple, complex ways but we will not EVER fix that. Ever. Unless tomorrow everyone plays nice and tomorrow we can fix genetics (a scary idea in and of itself) these people will always be created. Refusing to allow a tragedy to be owned by the victims (in this case, 4 men and 2 women) and instead sensationalizing their killer in my opinion IS further harming the families of the fallen. Could you imagine having your son taken away and reading the coverage of this case?

So that's my piece. I think I'm probably out on tragedy from this point on. Honestly I get too disgusted with everyone else when these things roll around. It's not good for my recovering cynic soul.

[NecCat]

This guy definitely had something wrong with him mentally, to think this was ok, but there are so many guys out there that (while never considering a shooting spree) think exactly the same way.

But as much as it annoys me when I nicely turn down an offer from a man and he immediately calls me a bitch or worse, it bothers me even more when woman do exactly the same thing! I'm 37, and currently single very much by choice, but the few friends I have that are still single are convinced it is all the fault of the guys. They also think that because I'm single I would be happy to bitch about how awful men are with them: I'm nice and smart, I'm a good cook, I have so much to offer, but no guy will look at me, they are only looking for pretty girls, if you're not a perfect ten you don't have a chance.

What I'm thinking: Um...have you not seen the married people out there? At least half of them are not all that physically attractive, and they all managed to find somebody. Do you not think it might be something you are doing wrong? What did you do last night? Oh, you sat on the couch and watched tv. And no guys just magically showed up to ask you out in your living room. Huh, that is weird.

The underlying attitude is not a problem with only one gender.