Ferguson, MO is a warzone.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

The witness and cop accounts differed.

That the forensics corroborate the cop's version of events would be a bad, bad sign for a conviction. Indictment perhaps, but I can't imagine clearing "beyond a reasonable doubt" if the primary witnesses have either proven themselves unreliable or lying.

That doesn't even mean he's not guilty. But damn it's going to be hard for a jury to convict given disproved witnesses and forensics which at best indicate a struggle, not an execution.

[Gravekeeper]

The witness and cop accounts differed.

That the forensics corroborate the cop's version of events would be a bad, bad sign for a conviction. Indictment perhaps, but I can't imagine clearing "beyond a reasonable doubt" if the primary witnesses have either proven themselves unreliable or lying.

That doesn't even mean he's not guilty. But damn it's going to be hard for a jury to convict given disproved witnesses and forensics which at best indicate a struggle, not an execution.

That there was an altercation at the vehicle and a shot fired during that altercation were never in doubt to begin with. There are no witnesses that stated there was no altercation at the vehicle. All witnesses agree there was an altercation and several even said they heard or witnessed the shot at the vehicle which wounded Brown. Both primary witnesses, neighbourhood witnesses and "independent" witnesses.

The only thing the forensics corroborate is that Brown was shot once at close range. It doesn't explain why he had to fire several more times when the suspect was a goodly distance away from him and the vehicle. On that matter, every witness has a similar story and there is still no public account of Wilson's explanation of his actions.

There is one anonymous grand jury witness who said he saw the entire thing and his grand jury testimony is thus:

Wilson drove past Johnson and Brown and then backed up again. A scuffle ensued in the police vehicle and Wilson's hat flew off. There was a gunshot at the vehicle, and then Brown ran down the street followed by Wilson. Wilson aimed his gun at Brown and repeatedly yelled "Stop", but did not fire until Brown turned around and stepped towards Wilson. At that point Wilson fired three shots. Brown staggered towards Wilson from 20 feet away with his hands out to his sides, when Wilson fired again. The witness said that Brown was already falling as the last shots were fired and that, in his opinion, the final shots were murder.

[Panacea]

I thought this was well known.

It was well known they scuffled in the car. Accounts differed on when and where Brown was when the first shot was fired. The blood IN the car and the gunpower residue lend credence to Wilson's claim that Brown was going for his gun.

There's little question at this point that the first shot was justified since in such close quarters Wilson can easily claim that the scuffle was a danger to himself and he could use reasonable force to defend himself.

However GK is right in pointing out that doesn't necessarily make the subsequent shooting justified. The whole issue will come down to whether or not Brown was surrendering or charging Officer Wilson.

I question the so called grand jury testimony. Grand jury deliberations are secret and any transcript of testimony is supposed to be sealed. Either someone is claiming this is what they testimony was, or someone broke the rules.

[Gravekeeper]

It was well known they scuffled in the car. Accounts differed on when and where Brown was when the first shot was fired. The blood IN the car and the gunpower residue lend credence to Wilson's claim that Brown was going for his gun.

Eh, not exactly. It doesn't lend credence to anything except that there was a scuffle at the car. What started the altercation is still an open question as is how it played out.

I question the so called grand jury testimony. Grand jury deliberations are secret and any transcript of testimony is supposed to be sealed. Either someone is claiming this is what they testimony was, or someone broke the rules.

The new information we're discussing is a leak itself. If you are going to question this, you must also question the forensics you just accepted at face value. Both are breaking the rules so to speak.

Besides, the witness in question already provided his witness statements to the police during the initial investigation. So his account itself is not a matter of grand jury secrecy.

[Gravekeeper]

Wow, so we FINALLY get the first autopsy report.

Multiple gunshot wounds:
- 3 in the head. Top of head, right eye/jaw and center of forehead. Top of head and forehead are entrance wounds. The eye/jaw is the exit wound. So he took one shot directly in the forehead, then one in the top of the head.
2 in the chest. One to the upper right of the chest near neck, the other below that. Both of these entered at a downward angle and backward.
3 in the right arm. Upper arm, middle of arm and forearm.
1 grazing wound on the right hand thumb.


It also includes officer Wilson's initial account:

He did indeed stop them because they were jaywalking. He says Brown became belligerent so Wilson decided to exit his vehicle but Brown "pushed his door closed and began to struggle with him". During this struggle his weapon became "unholstered" and "discharged". This round passed through Brown's right hand and into the arm. The initial account in the coroner's report does not say that Brown went for Wilson's gun. Only that during the struggle his weapon became unholstered and discharged.

There's no detail on what started the struggle. From witness accounts the claims are that Wilson grabbed Brown first starting the struggle and/or that people witnessed them "arm wrestling" or otherwise grappling. Both Brown and Wilson lost their hats during the struggle.

The wound in Brown's right hand contained trace elements that shows it was close range but does not show any stippling. So his hand was near the muzzle when the first shot was fired. This is the basis they are using for Brown going for the officer's gun. However, the gun was holstered on Wilson's right hip opposite to the window that Brown was at. It seems quite a bit more likely that Wilson drew his weapon first then that Brown just decided today he was going to be a cop killer.

After that, Brown, now wounded, began to flee. Wilson got out of his vehicle and pursued. Wilson then claims that Brown stopped, turned around and charged at him. So he opened fire. Killing Brown. Wilson has stated to the grand jury that he "Feared for his life".

As we know, this contrary to every witness account and where things get contentious.

There was also marijuana in his system.

[Greenday]

Gonna pick up again. No trial to happen. No reason to waste tax payer money on an obviously BS case.

Most of all, I love the opening statements from this speech. He ripped the media for trying to taint the case. He ripped social media for spreading lies. He ripped the "witnesses" who made up stories.

It's horrible that someone died, but fact is, Brown attacked the cop and paid with his life for it. The local black majority tried to use this to get back at the white cops whom seem to regularly abuse their power. This case has exposed deep racism on both sides of the community and everyone involved (local PD, fake witnesses, rioters) have shamed themselves.

[Gravekeeper]

Gonna pick up again. No trial to happen. No reason to waste tax payer money on an obviously BS case.

You should probably look into the grand jury evidence before you start. It's fucking sad, man. That's all I can say.

Here are Darren Wilson's "injuries" that he feared "would be fatal". You know, the one's he sustained in this vicious life threatening attack.

Here is the hospital report.

A bruise. One bruise. On the side of his face that was facing away from the driver side window. That's it. This savage life threatening attack that Wilson describes as a demonic super negro ( Seriously, according to Wilson he had to fire 3 hails of bullets to stop the "demonic" Brown from reaching him and brown just kept shrugging the shots off like Robocop ). Oh, and Wilson is also 6'4 200+ pounds. So he's not some little twerp being overpowered by the black hulk.

Also, Wilson's initial police interview was not recorded or transcribed. The transcript that was presented was from a second interview that was done later with Wilson's attorney present. Oh and his grand jury testimony was different from what he said in the second interview as well.

It's a fucking shame, alright dude. But not in the way you're saying.

[siead_lietrathua]

hubs saw the announcement on that yesterday. looks at me. says "looks like the states will have it's race war after all".
i think that about sums up how the public will react to this horseshit.

[Gravekeeper]

hubs saw the announcement on that yesterday. looks at me. says "looks like the states will have it's race war after all".
i think that about sums up how the public will react to this horseshit.

Yep, still sifting through court documents. The prosecutor ( the one everyone wanted off this case because he's a racist dick ) actually lead a witness in defense of Wilson. The prosecutor. ><

Never mind that the smirking fuck gave a 45+ minute speech blaming everything on the media or that he decided to release the decision at 8pm at night for prime rioting time or something. The local police departments had asked for a day time announcement specifically because of this. But the prosecutor made the decision to announce it at 8pm despite the police asking him not too because it could be an even bigger shit storm protest wise.

[lordlundar]

Someone (I'm not sure who, it was quoted on a live stream chat I was watching last night when the announcement happened) put it best:

The biggest fear out of this result is not that it will create more riots, but that it will create more Darren Wilsons.

[Panacea]

A bruise. One bruise. On the side of his face that was facing away from the driver side window. That's it.

News flash for you GK. The pictures were take at the hospital right after the incident.

More significant bruising often does not show itself for a day or more. It takes time for the blood to well up to the surface. This is a major problem in DV and rape cases when the police look at the victim, see no obvious injuries, and refuse to arrest the perpetrator on that basis.

That picture is actually not that useful. If you look at the discharge instructions (NOT the hospital report), it mentions that bone can be bruised. You wouldn't see visible signs on the surface but it is quite painful.

Also, Wilson's initial police interview was not recorded or transcribed. The transcript that was presented was from a second interview that was done later with Wilson's attorney present. Oh and his grand jury testimony was different from what he said in the second interview as well.

That the initial interview was not recorded or transcribed is a major blunder, no question. I've said many times the Ferguson PD botched the initial investigation. A medical investigator also screwed up the crime scene. Even if his measurements and pictures would have shown the same things as the police evidence, he still should have collected his own.

Are you suggesting Wilson should not have been allowed to have an attorney present in his second interview? Truth is, he should have had one in his first!

I did notice that his description of the struggle over the gun was different in his grand jury testimony. If anything, though, his description of that to the grand jury made him look WORSE not better than what was originally reported.

[Hyena Dandy]

I have to admit some surprise over there not being an indictment. Whether or not there should have been a conviction, it seems undoubtable to me that there's enough reason to bring it before a jury. The indictment is just to decide if someone MIGHT have done something. Not getting an indictment is rare.

[TheHuckster]

And the riots commence. At least a dozen buildings were torched, at least 14 injuries, and 82 arrests.

[Greenday]

Oh, and Wilson is also 6'4 200+ pounds. So he's not some little twerp being overpowered by the black hulk.

Actually, it kind of is. Wilson was about 210 pounds. Brown was 292 pounds. That's a huge difference. 6'4" and 210lbs is not that big for his height.

[Gravekeeper]

News flash for you GK. The pictures were take at the hospital right after the incident.

Yeah, the full medical report says something similar but that isn't really the problem here.

Wilson testified that he feared a third punch would be "fatal" as the reason he drew his weapon. The first two supposed punches left him with a barely visible bruise and "in no visible distress" with no signs of concussion or indeed anything else except for a bruise. Nothing broken, fractured or dislocated.

He also testified that his right and left cheeks were swollen at the time of this hospital visit ( which the hospital report disagrees with and finds no injury at all to the left ). When asked in the stand about the swelling in the pictures he said he "couldn't tell" whether or not his face was swollen.

A medical investigator also screwed up the crime scene. Even if his measurements and pictures would have shown the same things as the police evidence, he still should have collected his own.

He didn't take any pictures. He testified that his camera batteries were dead so he couldn't. >.>

Are you suggesting Wilson should not have been allowed to have an attorney present in his second interview? Truth is, he should have had one in his first!

No, I was mainly suggesting the Ferguson PD is a corrupt incompetent shithole putting up the blue wall around one of their own. >.>

I did notice that his description of the struggle over the gun was different in his grand jury testimony. If anything, though, his description of that to the grand jury made him look WORSE not better than what was originally reported.

Agreed. For those of you playing the home game here is the sequence according to Wilson:


This is the sequence of events according to Wilson:

1. He testified that the first punch was not a full on swing and that he deflected some of it with his arm.

2. Then he testified that Brown stopped attacking and while holding him in the car with one hand passed the cigars to the other guy with the other hand and told him "Hey man, hold these.".

3. At that point Wilson testified that he grabbed Brown's arm with both of his hands but that Brown was just so big and strong that it was like a "Hulk Hogan vs a 5 year old".

4. Brown hit him a second time in the jaw. Wilson let go of Brown and put his hands up to protect himself.

5. He did not want to use his mace because he didn't want to put one hand down to grab it and have only one hand to protect his face. He also testified that it would not be effective because Brown "had his hands in front of his face" which would have prevented it from hitting Brown in the face.

6. This is also why he did not want to use his baton. He did not want to lower one hand away from protecting his face.

7. Similar reason for not using his mag light.

8. So he lowered one hand away from his face to draw his gun instead ( okay? ) and testified that Brown immediately grabbed his gun.

Throughout Wilson's testimony he paints Brown as a superhuman killing machine. He was like "Hulk Hogan", he looked "Demonic" ( yes, he actually said demonic ), he had "Never seen someone so aggressive" in his entire life, bullets didn't phase him they just made him angrier, etc etc.