Ferguson, MO is a warzone.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, I guess everyone was right. A hands off, let's all be best friends, approach definitely works well.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ry.html#page=1

Guess not.

Yeah, the resurgence in anger has nothing to do with the local PD trying to assassinate the character of the victim. Releasing the name of the officer. Then having to admit the same day that the officer had no knowledge of the very thing they were try to smear the dead victim with.

Also, the police employed the very approach you just criticized to resolve this situation and the protesters were protecting local businesses from the handful of drunken looters. Oh and the protesters, police and Governor all referred to the looters as only a small handful of people. Something your link curiously admits even though the governor said it at the very same press conference its referring too.

But hey, keep fucking that chicken.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

And that's great... as long as the looters and the protesters don't start seriously injuring each other. That's the state's concern now.

It's good to see neighbors protecting property (that hasn't been destroyed already) but going forward, the PD will starting taking knocks if more looting happens and especially if people start hurting each other.

Honestly, I'm finding the whole thing fascinating. Specifically the entirely polemic nature of the whole thing. I get a very Dark Knight'ish vibe from some news sources as if people desperately want things to get out of hand.

Personally, I'm just waiting for more hard facts to come out. They can't be postponed indefinitely and autopsy results won't come quick. And it's what's going to confirm one version of events or the other. Scientific disciplines don't generally give a fuck how bad people want information. It's too easy to fuck everything up into inadmissability. I hope the cop is guilty if only for the reason, if the independent examiner ends up agreeing with the cop and invalidates the witness accounts you're going to have the two-fold problem of "this was a cover up" (those people never go away) and the potential violence from that along with the reality a lot of people got hurt for no particular cause. That's the part that has me annoyed with the coverage. There's not enough skepticism. Everyone's so damn sure of one version of events or another.

[Gravekeeper]

Well, things already got wildly out of hand when they deployed an army to handle a small town protest then went ape shit on people and journalists.

If the local PD would just shut the fuck up they might keep the situation calm. But they keep repeatedly re-igniting the situation with their bullshit. I mean they have the Highway patrol and the FBI on site now with a 40 man task force. Yet they went ahead and tried to smear the victim without telling the Highway Patrol or the FBI what they were about to do.

The local PD is a complete disgrace at this point yet they're still grovelling around trying to protect their own rank and file. Half the time the police chief has no idea whats going on. He was visibly surprised when people asked him why his officers were attacking the media. He even revealed who the officer that shot the victim was, inadvertently, the day before they actually released the officer's name. A reporter asked him if it was the officer in question and the moment the chief heard the name he freaked and got really flustered.

I don't know how he still has a job. There's still no incident report or preliminary autopsy report released. It was tooth and nail just to get them to admit the officer's name. It just seems like they're delaying everything as much as possible so they can scramble to come up with some way to blame the victim and protect their officer.

An officer who, by various community accounts, has been a total asshole from the moment he joined the force.

[Greenday]

So the rioters decide to attack people and places that have NOTHING to do with who they are angry against? Whatever. Opportunism at its worst. Go protest the police station. Riot there even. Nope, now that the police aren't watching us, let's go apeshit again and steal everything in town that isn't latched down!

[Gravekeeper]

So the rioters decide to attack people and places that have NOTHING to do with who they are angry against? Whatever. Opportunism at its worst. Go protest the police station. Riot there even. Nope, now that the police aren't watching us, let's go apeshit again and steal everything in town that isn't latched down!

I don't even know what point you're trying to make anymore. You've already repeatedly demonstrated that you're grossly uninformed about the topic and that you have no desire whatsoever to inform yourself. Yet its not stopping you from continuing to post about it. Its honestly kind of amazing how far you're going to try and justify the deployment of military force against the civilian population in your own country.

There's always going to be a handful of assholes that try and take advantage of situations like this. But they do not justify the use of military grade weapons against the civilian population in what should be a democracy.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

But are we talking about military grade weaponry right now tonight in Ferguson in use by the highway patrol?

Ferguson can't be the proxy for every other town that has a militarized police force. It's not fair to the people who have to live there or the cops that have to keep the peace. The topic can't keep jumping so people can stay angry. I take that back... it can but the question is going to be what exactly the end result is people want.

If people want to keep protesting, the only relevant questions remaining are how to keep the peace in that context and who will be doing it.

The separate issue which is Brown's accused killer's investigation and probable eventual trial has to work itself out. As for people's perceived right to up to the minute information on an active investigation, I don't really buy it. I might capitulate if only because people are wound on this issue and instigating crimes in the name of it, but since in reality the only people this information will matter to in a real sense is an eventual jury, I'm wondering what people THINK they need it for this quickly.

[Hyena Dandy]

The discussion around Ferguson is about police brutality, and about police not being held responsible for their actions. Militarization of the police force is a part of this. If the police hadn't come out with military hardware, we wouldn't be talking about it. Police do not seem to be trained in the use of these items, and they're making the situation worse. The reason this is a big deal isn't just one person, it's that this has happened before, and continues to happen.

So the rioters decide to attack people and places that have NOTHING to do with who they are angry against? Whatever. Opportunism at its worst. Go protest the police station. Riot there even. Nope, now that the police aren't watching us, let's go apeshit again and steal everything in town that isn't latched down!

What are you even on about? Are we talking about the same situation, or are you just looking for excuses?

Protestors got in the way and stopped rioters. Yes, where there's unrest, people will take advantage of it. It IS opportunism at its worse, but it's not a massive number of people doing that. You accuse all critics of this situation of being just hippies who don't want to stop violence, or who hate cops, ANY TIME ANYTHING SHOWS UP. Do you think cops can't make mistakes? They can, and if the response was appropriately dealing with mistakes, we wouldn't be here.

A guy gets killed, protests happen, they get big enough and start becoming troublesome, so the police start playing soldier. It switches to police NOT being jackasses, and things calm down, until the Ferguson PD decides to bring up totally unrelated character assassination, (They seem to have time to find when Brown stole a case of cigars, but not find the time to release the autopsy report?) which gets more people upset, and now you act like this proves that the police were acting appropriately earlier.

[Panacea]

There's no question that the entire response by the Ferguson PD has been grossly incompetent from the get go. The chief should be FIRED on the spot, he's done such a poor job, and actually made a bad situation much worse than it needed to be.

That being said:

- The victim's body was face down, 35 feet from the officer's patrol car.

That does not necessarily mean anything at this point. We only have one point of view: Dorian Johnson's. We don't know the other side of the story, or what reason there may be for the body to be where it was.

- He was shot at least 4 times ( The police will not say how many ).

Totally irrelevant. Police officers are trained to shoot multiple times to make sure the suspect goes down and stays down. Officers are NOT trained to shoot to wound. If Officer Wilson's shooting turns out to be justified, then the fact Brown was shot four times will not matter legally speaking (of course it matters to his family).

- He was unarmed.

Again, that may not matter. If he really did go for Officer Wilson's gun, then that gives the officer justification to shoot.

- The police have declined to interview the friend that was with him to get his witness testimony. Per that friend's attorney.

That's because the police almost immediately handed the investigation off to the St. Louis police. The Ferguson police are not going to interview suspects at this point. I don't know why the St. Louis police haven't interviewed him yet, but they will eventually.

- The officer did not radio in a shooting nor did he call for EMS.

Officer Wilson was badly shaken by the shooting. Another officer in the area responded within minutes anyway, as did an ambulance. However, EMS is not normally called if the person shot is dead.

- Dispatch found out about the shooting from the news and had to ask the PD.

Incorrect. Another officer was on the scene minutes after Brown was shot, as was an ambulance (who was originally in the area responding to another call).

- His body was left in the street for 4 hours.

The police had to secure the scene of the crime, and gather evidence. I've viewed video evidence of this sort before . . . four hours is a bit long, but I've seen bodies left for a couple of hours while detectives and crime scene people did their thing.

- It was eventually stuffed in the back of a police SUV. No EMS was ever called.

An ambulance was on the scene. However, there is no reason to call EMS when the suspect is dead. The police in many jurisdictions can declare a death on their own. And many coroners use SUVs to transport bodies.

- The FBI and Department of Justice both launched investigations into the shooting.

As well they should, given the circumstances. And they may well find that Brown's civil rights were not violated.

- The St Louis County PD, who has been in command of this fuckfest, has just been removed from command by the state.

The Ferguson PD Chief should be fired for his utter incompetence in handling this situation.

Does any of that sound like the police were doing a wonderful, appropriate job? I sincerely suggest you take some time to read into this. Because defending the people that just wiped their ass with your Constitution isn't reflecting well.

I suggest you don't know what kind of job Officer Wilson did. No one does. That's why there has to be an investigation.

So in a town that's mostly black, it's mostly black people being stopped? That sounds...reasonable.

As for the makeup of the police force and local government, how many black people have actually attempted to join either?

Let's face facts: our legal system is rigged against blacks in this country. They are a minority of the population, but a majority of the prison population. They get harsher charges and harsher sentences than whites who commit similar offenses. The people in Ferguson do have good reasons not to trust the police, even if in this case they are way off base (given that they are defending a guy who strong armed robbed a store minutes before he was shot).

So the rioters decide to attack people and places that have NOTHING to do with who they are angry against? Whatever. Opportunism at its worst. Go protest the police station. Riot there even. Nope, now that the police aren't watching us, let's go apeshit again and steal everything in town that isn't latched down!

Yes, this is the problem. Double standards cut both ways; the blacks in Ferguson may have good reasons not to like or trust the police or legal authorities, but they don't take the higher road when they loot and pillage, and threaten violence against people to vent their rage.

These people are worse than a riot: they are a lynch mob. They are demanding criminal charges when all the facts aren't in yet, and are ignoring the fact their little angle committed a strong arm robbery less than 10 minutes before he was shot.

The fact that Wilson didn't know this doesn't make Brown an innocent victim of police brutality. Brown had to be panicking when he saw a cop after just shoving a C store clerk into a product rack and stealing $50 of cigars. That impacted his encounter with Wilson, who was just trying to get a couple of kids out of the street.

[Gravekeeper]

As for people's perceived right to up to the minute information on an active investigation, I don't really buy it. I might capitulate if only because people are wound on this issue and instigating crimes in the name of it, but since in reality the only people this information will matter to in a real sense is an eventual jury, I'm wondering what people THINK they need it for this quickly.

With holding it is just letting anger stew in the community and fueling the legitimate perception that the cops are delaying so they can come up with a story to protect the officer in question. Plus there's no incident report either and from the dispatch audio we know the officer in question did not report the shooting. Nor did he call EMS at any point. A full autopsy report takes some time to complete. But a preliminary report should be available. The police won't even admit how many times the officer fired his weapon.

Its not that people want up to date information. They wanted ANY information, really. Someone's laying face down dead in the street for 4 hours with the cop that shot him that won't even call an ambulance and everyone that witnessed it said the cop shot him while he was fleeing. Yeah, you better bet you want to get information out quickly to clear things up before the town, rightfully, ends up in an uproar.

The only real reason to delay the information ( and try to obfuscate the case by naming the victim as a robbery suspect ) would be because they know the information they have is damning. They were only forced to admit the officer had no knowledge of the robbery in question after a Freedom of Information act request was made that they had to comply with. Probably from somewhere higher up.

Remember, the police did not even interview witnesses. They didn't even talk to the friend that was with the victim. The FBI had to step in and is now conducting door to door witness interviews with a task force.

If we contrast this to yet another black teen gets shot by white guy case. Specifically the one where the asshole shot her in the face on his porch. The initial police report was released the same day the story hit the news and the full shooting details came out the day after that. And that was a case where there were no witnesses except the shooter.

But this one in broad daylight in the middle of the street surrounded by witnesses and the local PD refused to say anything whatsoever. Because the shooter had a uniform on. Instead they let the entire town turn into a war zone in the most spectacular display of police incompetence to grace the state. Rather than admit one of their officers might have screwed the pooch.

[Gravekeeper]

That does not necessarily mean anything at this point. We only have one point of view: Dorian Johnson's. We don't know the other side of the story, or what reason there may be for the body to be where it was.

No, there are multiple witnesses. Not just Dorian. Also, we do know the other side of the story. The official account has already been given by the Ferguson PD.

Totally irrelevant. Police officers are trained to shoot multiple times to make sure the suspect goes down and stays down. Officers are NOT trained to shoot to wound. If Officer Wilson's shooting turns out to be justified, then the fact Brown was shot four times will not matter legally speaking (of course it matters to his family).

Very relevant. As both the witnesses account and official account state the first shot was by the officer's vehicle during a struggle. At which point Brown and Dorian both fled. After which point more shots were fired and Brown ended up dead in the street.

All accounts agree there was an altercation at the officer's vehicle during which one shot was fired.

From that point 3 independent witnesses ( Including Dorian ) stated that Dorian and Brown fled from the officer. The officer exited his vehicle and fired one shot, striking Brown. Brown stopped, put his hands up, and was then shot two more times. He fell and died 35 feet from the officer's vehicle. Brown was unarmed.

If Brown did indeed go for the officer's gun that does give him justification to shoot. But not justification to pursue and essentially execute.

Officer Wilson was badly shaken by the shooting. Another officer in the area responded within minutes anyway, as did an ambulance. However, EMS is not normally called if the person shot is dead.

Officer Wilson was not so badly shaken that he couldn't radio in. Seeing as he radio'd in for crowd control but did not mention that there was a shooting. But in light of the witness accounts if EMS is not called when a person is shot dead, Wilson obviously knew the guy was dead. >.>

I see the newer report you mentioned with the ambulance. But also note that the ambulance was responding to the same call Wilson was responding too ( A sick / welfare check call ). Before he stopped on his way to get Dorian and Brown on jaywalking.

Also, dispatch recordings reveal the dispatcher having to ask the Ferguson PD if anyone was involved in a shooting. Because they were getting information about a shooting from the news.

The police had to secure the scene of the crime, and gather evidence. I've viewed video evidence of this sort before . . . four hours is a bit long, but I've seen bodies left for a couple of hours while detectives and crime scene people did their thing.

Yes, but in the middle of the street in a residential neighbourhood in broad daylight? They did secure the scene pretty quickly but they left the body out for quite some time before finally covering it.

I suggest you don't know what kind of job Officer Wilson did. No one does. That's why there has to be an investigation.

I was referring to the police as a whole there. Not Wilson specifically. Though it sounds like Wilson was well known amongst the black community for harassing teenagers in the neighbourhood.

Yes, this is the problem. Double standards cut both ways; the blacks in Ferguson may have good reasons not to like or trust the police or legal authorities, but they don't take the higher road when they loot and pillage, and threaten violence against people to vent their rage.

I don't know, frankly I'm impressed only a handful of them took the low road given how much bullshit, poverty, hopelessness and discrimination the black community has put up with in America for so long.

These people are worse than a riot: they are a lynch mob. They are demanding criminal charges when all the facts aren't in yet, and are ignoring the fact their little angle committed a strong arm robbery less than 10 minutes before he was shot.

I don't think anyone's ignoring it. I think its more that no one deserves to be executed in the middle of the street over a pack of cigarettes. Coupled with how it follows the repeated tactic we see every time a young black person is shot. There's a rush to smear them or paint them as some sort of thug that deserved to get shot.

If Brown thought the cop was on to him, which he likely did, it explains the altercation that occurred at the vehicle. But that altercation isn't the problem. The problem is the apparent pursuit and execution.

[Panacea]

No, there are multiple witnesses. Not just Dorian. Also, we do know the other side of the story. The official account has already been given by the Ferguson PD.

Yes, I know there were other witnesses. However, that doesn't mean further investigation into their statements is not warranted. Also, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable. That's why forensics will be a big part of this story.

The official account by the Ferguson PD is not the same thing as Officer Wilson's side of the story. The FPD is clearly manipulating the dialouge, which is not to Officer Wilson's benefit in the long run.

Very relevant. As both the witnesses account and official account state the first shot was by the officer's vehicle during a struggle. At which point Brown and Dorian both fled. After which point more shots were fired and Brown ended up dead in the street.

We don't know if the distance is relevant or not. The investigation is not complete. You are jumping to conclusions.

All accounts agree there was an altercation at the officer's vehicle during which one shot was fired.

Which is why I think it is possible this shooting may be justified. Even if it ends up not being justified, I seriously doubt it will lead to a murder charge given the circumstances of the case.

From that point 3 independent witnesses ( Including Dorian ) stated that Dorian and Brown fled from the officer. The officer exited his vehicle and fired one shot, striking Brown. Brown stopped, put his hands up, and was then shot two more times. He fell and died 35 feet from the officer's vehicle. Brown was unarmed.

This is only a claim at this point. It is part of the story, part of the evidence. You don't know that's what actually happened. We do know that Dorian Johnson had every reason to lie about what really happened. We don't know how truthful the other witnesses are being at this point, or if they really did see what they thought they saw.

If Brown did indeed go for the officer's gun that does give him justification to shoot. But not justification to pursue and essentially execute.

You should put yourself in the shoes of this officer before you judge him. Police work is inherently dangerous. Cops have to make judgement calls that can lead to life or death in split seconds. Make the wrong call, and someone may die: you, an innocent victim/bystander, or the suspect.

To call it an execution implies malice. You have no evidence that Officer Wilson had any malice in his heart.

Officer Wilson was not so badly shaken that he couldn't radio in. Seeing as he radio'd in for crowd control but did not mention that there was a shooting. But in light of the witness accounts if EMS is not called when a person is shot dead, Wilson obviously knew the guy was dead. >.>

You don't know what Officer Wilson was feeling. You've never killed anyone.

I have an inkling. I've been involved in patient care cases that went horribly horribly wrong, and the patient died. It doesn't matter that everyone around me at the time told me it wasn't my fault, that I did everything right. I still second guess myself. I've never taken a life on purpose . . . but simply believing I failed when I could have done better is the most awful feeling on earth. I can't imagine how much worse Officer Wilson feels, but I have a better idea than most

I see the newer report you mentioned with the ambulance. But also note that the ambulance was responding to the same call Wilson was responding too ( A sick / welfare check call ). Before he stopped on his way to get Dorian and Brown on jaywalking.

Right. That's because Johnson and Brown were obstructing traffic and putting their own safety at risk. Wilson couldn't ignore that; as a public safety officer he is obligated to stop and do something. If they had just gotten out of the damn road, Wilson could have been on his merry way to the sick call and no one would have gotten hurt.

Also, dispatch recordings reveal the dispatcher having to ask the Ferguson PD if anyone was involved in a shooting. Because they were getting information about a shooting from the news.

OK, lets talk about that a minute.

First of all, those recordings were not released by the PD. They were released by the hacker group Anonymous, who hacked into the system and obtained the recordings. They also got the name of the officer involved wrong . . . naming a civilian who had nothing to do with the situation. A civilian whose life was threatened by people in the community in the wake of this action.

I've listened to the recording. It's USELESS. It says it has a time stamp, but it does not actually show the actual times itself. This recording could have been later than alleged. It's the St. Louis dispatcher, not the Ferguson dispatcher. Only the dispatcher is heard, not the other side of the conversation; you don't hear the responses of the police officers she is speaking to (and you would; they've been edited out). The Ferguson dispatcher is actually never heard on this tape.

The part where the dispatcher says "be advised, this information came from the news" doesn't mean that she talked to the Ferguson dispatcher and was told that by Ferguson PD. It more likely means that a civilian called in the shooting and got routed to the St. Louis dispatcher. That happens all the time; where I live, there is overlapping jurisdiction between High Point, Greensboro, and the Guilford County Sheriff's Department. A distance of a few blocks affects who responds to the call, and it's not unusual for me to get punted from one dispatcher to another when I call the police.

Without knowing what was said on the radio by the police officers on the scene you don't know what they reported or when they reported it.

Yes, but in the middle of the street in a residential neighbourhood in broad daylight? They did secure the scene pretty quickly but they left the body out for quite some time before finally covering it.

Nobody really knows how long the body was there, or how long it was left uncovered.

However, a crowd gathered almost immediately and began protesting the shooting. Tempers were getting pretty high right away. I'm sure that has something to do with why the body was left for four hours. I'm not sure I believe it was left uncovered that long.

I was referring to the police as a whole there. Not Wilson specifically. Though it sounds like Wilson was well known amongst the black community for harassing teenagers in the neighbourhood.

Source please. Wilson was a six year veteran with no disciplinary action on his record.

Was he harassing teens . . . or telling them to stop their bullshit when he caught them being knuckleheads doing stupid shit? You don't know that.

I don't know, frankly I'm impressed only a handful of them took the low road given how much bullshit, poverty, hopelessness and discrimination the black community has put up with in America for so long.

Only a handful . . . are you FUCKING kidding me? A riot is not a handful of people.

I don't think anyone's ignoring it. I think its more that no one deserves to be executed in the middle of the street over a pack of cigarettes. Coupled with how it follows the repeated tactic we see every time a young black person is shot. There's a rush to smear them or paint them as some sort of thug that deserved to get shot.

Oh, they're ignoring it. Character matters, GK. And they know it; that's why they're so mad about what the FPD chief did. Because the ugly truth is, Michael Brown WAS a thug! He truly was.

That doesn't mean I think he deserved to die for being a thug. I think he deserved to spend some hard time in prison for the strong arm robbery. But when a criminal suspects tries to grab a police officer's gun and gets shot, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for the suspect when he does in fact die.

If the FBI investigation shows something different about Officer Wilson's actions, then my opinion will change; it's not set in stone.

Now, I'll grant you releasing that video at the same time as the officer name was STUPID. It's another shining example of the utter incompetence of the FPD chief, another reason why the town council needs to FIRE his ass.

If Brown thought the cop was on to him, which he likely did, it explains the altercation that occurred at the vehicle. But that altercation isn't the problem. The problem is the apparent pursuit and execution.

Maybe it's a problem, maybe not. One witness was in his apartment; his view was obscured. Another witness has every reason to lie about what happened.

I want to see what the FBI investigation has to say before I judge Officer Wilson's actions.

[Gravekeeper]

The official account by the Ferguson PD is not the same thing as Officer Wilson's side of the story. The FPD is clearly manipulating the dialouge, which is not to Officer Wilson's benefit in the long run.

Well, Wilson has skipped town ( Not that I blame him. Regardless of what he did or did not do, the media vomited all of his personal information and home address for the world to see on national television. Putting his family in danger. ) and hasn't given his side of the story. Even though it would have been to his benefit to give his side ASAP instead of letting the PD cobble together this piss poor narrative while the community stewed in anger.

We don't know if the distance is relevant or not. The investigation is not complete. You are jumping to conclusions.

The distance is relevant because the police account is that the shooting occurred beside the officer's vehicle and that Mike Brown attempted to enter the officer's vehicle. All of the witness accounts so far say he did not attempt to enter the vehicle and that only the initial shot(s) occurred by the vehicle. At which point both Brown and Dorian fled.

Its not jumping to conclusions when something clearly isn't adding up here. While Dorian's witness statements are suspect ( I don't think the officer seriously wiped his gun out and said he was going to shoot them ). The fact we have 3+ other witnesses all giving similar accounts says something.

Which is why I think it is possible this shooting may be justified. Even if it ends up not being justified, I seriously doubt it will lead to a murder charge given the circumstances of the case.

I doubt it will lead to a murder charge simply because it seems like American police are rarely held accountable for anything. =/

We don't know how truthful the other witnesses are being at this point, or if they really did see what they thought they saw.

Given it was broad daylight in the middle of the street of a neighbourhood there aren't really any mitigating factors like light conditions or anything. Depending on the viewpoints of the witnesses, a clear picture of the initial altercation might be difficult to piece together. But when they all concur the suspect fled and the officer pursued and opened fire?

Did one officer mess up or is it a spontaneous conspiracy? We have 3+ witnesses including someone that live tweeted the shooting.

You should put yourself in the shoes of this officer before you judge him. Police work is inherently dangerous. Cops have to make judgement calls that can lead to life or death in split seconds. Make the wrong call, and someone may die: you, an innocent victim/bystander, or the suspect.

It is specifically because of that that an officer must have complete control over escalation of force. To avoid making a tragic mistake.

To call it an execution implies malice. You have no evidence that Officer Wilson had any malice in his heart.

Execute doesn't imply malice. Execute implies sentencing by the state. Murder implies malice. I don't think the officer leapt out of his car thinking "Oh boy imma shoot myself a n****r!" or anything. But I would say its pretty evident that he made a terrible error in judgement for some reason.

If there was a legitimate reason the police would have had it out the same day. Instead of going mum on the subject for a week while the town burned. Then trying to paint the victim as a thug. A move which, it turns out, they did despite protests from Department of Justice who told them not to release the information about Brown being a robbery suspect. Because the DOJ, obviously, felt it would just reignite the situation and lead to more unrest. Which it did.

You don't know what Officer Wilson was feeling. You've never killed anyone.

An officer is trained to handle emergency scenarios. And the first thing you do is radio in asap if you've been attacked or had to discharge your weapon. Granted I don't know how police training is down there ( It seems pretty piss poor in a lot of places ) but that's the unified standard up here.Hence the infamous RCMP pepper spray test.

Right. That's because Johnson and Brown were obstructing traffic and putting their own safety at risk. Wilson couldn't ignore that; as a public safety officer he is obligated to stop and do something. If they had just gotten out of the damn road, Wilson could have been on his merry way to the sick call and no one would have gotten hurt.

This is a residential street, not a major traffic route. It basically connects the parking lots of a housing co-op. Which is why this turned into such a flash point so fast. Because it happened right in the middle of a housing co-op. So there was a crowd instantly and the story spread from the witnesses pretty fast.

First of all, those recordings were not released by the PD. They were released by the hacker group Anonymous, who hacked into the system and obtained the recordings. They also got the name of the officer involved wrong . . . naming a civilian who had nothing to do with the situation. A civilian whose life was threatened by people in the community in the wake of this action.

The Ferguson PD did not dispute the audio recordings and no, the officer's calls in were not edited out. They're recorded on a different channel. Also, Anonymous was aware they might have the wrong name and fully said as such. The name release was an ultimatum. They warned the Ferguson PD that they would dox an officer they suspected was the shooter. Releasing his information bit by bit unless the Ferguson PD responded. The Ferguson PD ignored them then had to scramble to deny their incorrect information.

Anon might be a bunch of unpredictable anarchists. But flat out ignoring them is never a great plan in these situations. Sadly, they've also been one of the best sources for on the ground pictures/footage through all of this.

Nobody really knows how long the body was there, or how long it was left uncovered.

There was a crowd of a good 40-50 people on scene. You can't fire 4-7 shots in the middle of 6 apartment buildings and not draw attention.

Source please. Wilson was a six year veteran with no disciplinary action on his record. Was he harassing teens . . . or telling them to stop their bullshit when he caught them being knuckleheads doing stupid shit? You don't know that.

Honestly? Probably a little from column A and a little form column B. Wilson is known to the community thanks to his wonderful mother. But this is the same police department that charged a guy with 4 counts of property damage for bleeding on their uniforms after they beat him. Then lost the surveillance footage of it by accident. I'm not sure a clean record with this department means much.

Not to say Wilson is a terrible monster or anything. Just that the police department he's part of is a terrible organization.

Only a handful . . . are you FUCKING kidding me? A riot is not a handful of people.

Hey, only a handful is a direct quote from the governor and the Highway patrol. Don't yell at me for it. -.-

I was also referring to the looters and what not. Frankly, the rioting is all on the Ferguson and St Louis PD's heads.

Oh, they're ignoring it. Character matters, GK. And they know it; that's why they're so mad about what the FPD chief did. Because the ugly truth is, Michael Brown WAS a thug! He truly was.

He truly was? Seriously? He has no prior record, graduated high school and was accepted into college. Was a he a moron for risking it for a pack of cigarettes? Sure. But a thug? No. "Thug" is a poisoned word in the US media and part of the problem.

I want to see what the FBI investigation has to say before I judge Officer Wilson's actions.

Fair enough. I'm hoping the FBI will get answers faster than the idjits at the FPD. It looks like they're going to do a second independent autopsy now too. No one trusts the FPD with anything. Not even the DoJ. >.>

[BlaqueKatt]

Only a handful . . . are you FUCKING kidding me? A riot is not a handful of people.

there were exactly 10 people out of *hundereds* arrested for looting. that's a handful, and they weren't protesters, they were from out of town using the protests as an excuse to steal. All had prior criminal records for vandalism and theft.

But when a criminal suspects tries to grab a police officer's gun and gets shot, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for the suspect when he does in fact die.

he was *not* a criminal suspect(officer wilson knew nothing about the robbery), and you're assuming the officer isn't hiding anything, but the other witnesses are by default lying, why? you've made an assumption that he did go for the officer's gun with no more evidence than "the cop said so", and someone that would lose their job, and face criminal charges couldn't have any motive to lie. He was shot once at the car, the other shots were fired after the fact, even the SLPD admits that, which is *wrong*

Constitutionally, "police officers are allowed to shoot under two circumstances," says Klinger. The first circumstance is "to protect their life or the life of another innocent party" — what departments call the "defense-of-life" standard. The second circumstance is to prevent a suspect from escaping, but only if the officer has probable cause to think the suspect's committed a serious violent felony.

If he shot without reason he has just as much if not more reason to lie.

We don't know the other side of the story, or what reason there may be for the body to be where it was.

official account:another shot hit and killed Brown 35 feet from the car.

also there's photos of the incident, taken by a witness.

She saw Wilson try to place Brown into the squad car. When Brown ran away with his hands in the air, Wilson fired several shots. Crenshaw took photos of the exchange, which she turned over to police.

I want to see what the FBI investigation has to say before I judge Officer Wilson's actions.

you already have.

[Panacea]

Well, Wilson has skipped town ( Not that I blame him. Regardless of what he did or did not do, the media vomited all of his personal information and home address for the world to see on national television. Putting his family in danger. ) and hasn't given his side of the story. Even though it would have been to his benefit to give his side ASAP instead of letting the PD cobble together this piss poor narrative while the community stewed in anger.

Wilson CANNOT give his side of the story. He would have been ordered by his superiors not to discuss it (since there is an active investigation), and his own attorney (I'm sure he has one by now) would have advised the same thing.

He didn't "skip town." He fled for his life, and took his family with him. Unless he's not keeping in touch with the authorities about his wherabouts, he is not a fugitive.

Wilson has no control over that idiot running his department.

The distance is relevant because the police account is that the shooting occurred beside the officer's vehicle and that Mike Brown attempted to enter the officer's vehicle. All of the witness accounts so far say he did not attempt to enter the vehicle and that only the initial shot(s) occurred by the vehicle. At which point both Brown and Dorian fled.

There's still too much we don't know about this shooting. We know at least one shot was fired inside the vehicle, then the altercation moved away from the vehicle. What we don't know is how far away Brown actually was from Wilson when the shooting took place. That's what the autopsy will help tell us, plus the forensics from the crime scene.

Dorian Johnson says Wilson reached through the open window of his vehicle and grabbed Brown by the throat. I call BS on that. It doesn't make sense for the officer to do that; Brown was a tall guy, and there was no reason for him to do that. Wilson wouldn't have been able to reach Brown unless he leaned down very low. Wilson says Brown pushed him into his car; that makes MUCH more sense from a physical standpoint.

Its not jumping to conclusions when something clearly isn't adding up here. While Dorian's witness statements are suspect ( I don't think the officer seriously wiped his gun out and said he was going to shoot them ). The fact we have 3+ other witnesses all giving similar accounts says something.

You're right in that something doesn't add up. The problem with witness testimony is that it can be colored by angle, obstacles, personal bias, and distance. Many people are not good at judging long distances. That's why I want to see the forensics report and the autopsy report. Those will tell me far, far more.

I recently did a legal case where witnesses to two separate incidents with a patient gave a very dramatic story about what happened to the patient. It was chilling to read, and the family went apeshit.

The problem was, the medical evidence didn't support the witness claims. The two incidents were unrelated from a medical stand point, and the one had nothing to do with the other. But from what the witnesses told the family, you would think they WERE related, and that there was a cover up of what happened to the person (a prison inmate). This is the kind of thing I'm talking about: what the witnesses thought they saw, may not be what happened (except in the case of Dorian Johnson; I'm convinced he's either lying or withholding key information).

I doubt it will lead to a murder charge simply because it seems like American police are rarely held accountable for anything. =/

Not so. The cop who killed a man with a chokehold is going to be held accountable for what he did; a blatant violation of use of force policies that led to a man's death.

Given it was broad daylight in the middle of the street of a neighbourhood there aren't really any mitigating factors like light conditions or anything. Depending on the viewpoints of the witnesses, a clear picture of the initial altercation might be difficult to piece together. But when they all concur the suspect fled and the officer pursued and opened fire?

Don't assume that because it was broad daylight that light isn't a factor. The direction of sunlight can blind or partially blind people so as to partially obscure vision. Bending of light through windows can distort what you see. That this happened in broad daylight doesn't mean people's perceptions aren't impacted just as much as they might be in the dark. Ever have trouble seeing a traffic light because you're driving right into sunset or sunrise?

The story of the witnesses may change after they've been interviewed.

Did one officer mess up or is it a spontaneous conspiracy? We have 3+ witnesses including someone that live tweeted the shooting.

Yeah, that guy didn't start tweeting until the shooting was over. I've read his tweets. The pictures he shows are through a window. He didn't have a clear and unobstructed view of everything that happened.

It is specifically because of that that an officer must have complete control over escalation of force. To avoid making a tragic mistake.

Ideally, yes. But police officers are human beings. They have to make split second decisions, and sometimes they make the wrong ones. That's reason to get fired and kicked off the force. It's not criminal.

Execute doesn't imply malice. Execute implies sentencing by the state. Murder implies malice. I don't think the officer leapt out of his car thinking "Oh boy imma shoot myself a n****r!" or anything. But I would say its pretty evident that he made a terrible error in judgement for some reason.

Oh, please! You're splitting hairs. Malice is what you implied through your use of the word.

If there was a legitimate reason the police would have had it out the same day. Instead of going mum on the subject for a week while the town burned. Then trying to paint the victim as a thug. A move which, it turns out, they did despite protests from Department of Justice who told them not to release the information about Brown being a robbery suspect. Because the DOJ, obviously, felt it would just reignite the situation and lead to more unrest. Which it did.

Police agencies don't talk about ongoing investigations for good reasons. It muddles the investigative process. We agree, the FPD's response was ham handed at best. They should have listened to the Justice Dept and the Highway Patrol.

Michael Brown WAS a thug. No doubt about it. That fact would have and should have come out. Just not when it did, because the timing just inflamed tensions.

An officer is trained to handle emergency scenarios. And the first thing you do is radio in asap if you've been attacked or had to discharge your weapon. Granted I don't know how police training is down there ( It seems pretty piss poor in a lot of places ) but that's the unified standard up here.Hence the infamous RCMP pepper spray test.

We don't know Wilson didn't radio in. We don't have the FPD dispatcher's recordings. We have the St. Louis PD recordings.

This is a residential street, not a major traffic route. It basically connects the parking lots of a housing co-op. Which is why this turned into such a flash point so fast. Because it happened right in the middle of a housing co-op. So there was a crowd instantly and the story spread from the witnesses pretty fast.

So? The crowd had choices in their actions. They chose to get out of hand, complicating the investigation for the police and forcing the body to remain where it was longer than necessary.

The Ferguson PD did not dispute the audio recordings and no, the officer's calls in were not edited out. They're recorded on a different channel. Also, Anonymous was aware they might have the wrong name and fully said as such. The name release was an ultimatum. They warned the Ferguson PD that they would dox an officer they suspected was the shooter. Releasing his information bit by bit unless the Ferguson PD responded. The Ferguson PD ignored them then had to scramble to deny their incorrect information.

Point taken on the channel issue; however, Anonymous should have released both channels. Their choice was to make the FPD look bad, and so their actions are disingenuous to say the least.

There's no reason for FPD to dispute the recording; it doesn't involve their agency. And again, they can't comment on an ongoing investigation . . . what part of that are you failing to understand?

Anonymous acted irresponsibly and cruelly. They could have gotten someone killed, an innocent person killed. Quite frankly, I am astonished you are not chastising them with the same vigour you chastise Wilson and the FPD.

I am so sick of those dunderheads. They create more problems than they solve. They need to STFU and go away.

Anon might be a bunch of unpredictable anarchists. But flat out ignoring them is never a great plan in these situations. Sadly, they've also been one of the best sources for on the ground pictures/footage through all of this.

They're dicks. Bottom line. One of these days someone is going to die because of their sanctimonious bullshit.

They have managed to completely muddle the picture of this situation with their WRONG information and misleading information. They are no better than the FPD on this.

There was a crowd of a good 40-50 people on scene. You can't fire 4-7 shots in the middle of 6 apartment buildings and not draw attention.

Yes, I know. I've lived in an apartment complex. People can choose to stay in their homes, and let the police handle it.

Honestly? Probably a little from column A and a little form column B. Wilson is known to the community thanks to his wonderful mother. But this is the same police department that charged a guy with 4 counts of property damage for bleeding on their uniforms after they beat him. Then lost the surveillance footage of it by accident. I'm not sure a clean record with this department means much.

Source please.

Not to say Wilson is a terrible monster or anything. Just that the police department he's part of is a terrible organization.

I don't get you. One minute you claim Wilson executed a man, then you say he is not a terrible monster. Which is it?

We agree the FPD needs major reform. They need someone like our outgoing chief here in Greensboro (who cleaned up a lot of problems with our force).

Hey, only a handful is a direct quote from the governor and the Highway patrol. Don't yell at me for it. -.-

You said it like you agreed with it, so you have to own it.

Frankly, the rioting is all on the Ferguson and St Louis PD's heads.

That we agree on, to a point. The rioters are also responsible for their own actions; they can't use outrage (justified or not) as an excuse.

He truly was? Seriously? He has no prior record, graduated high school and was accepted into college. Was a he a moron for risking it for a pack of cigarettes? Sure. But a thug? No. "Thug" is a poisoned word in the US media and part of the problem.

That he had no prior record is irrelevant. He threw it away when he shoved that clerk into a product rack. He was a thug.

Fair enough. I'm hoping the FBI will get answers faster than the idjits at the FPD. It looks like they're going to do a second independent autopsy now too. No one trusts the FPD with anything. Not even the DoJ. >.>

The investigation will take some time. There are no instant answers in this kind of investigation.

For starters, there are going to be THREE autopsies: one by the state of Missouri, one by the DoJ, and one by an independent pathologist hired by the family. I'm hoping the results are released publicly; I am very interested to see what conclusions they reach.

[Panacea]

there were exactly 10 people out of *hundereds* arrested for looting. that's a handful, and they weren't protesters, they were from out of town using the protests as an excuse to steal. All had prior criminal records for vandalism and theft.

10 arrested. Not 10 looting. Give me a break. Most of the looters got away scot free.

Then you've got the guys throwing Molotov cocktails.

These people are making choices. Bad ones. I will not excuse their behavior, nor not speak up when someone minimizes those actions and choices.

he was *not* a criminal suspect(officer wilson knew nothing about the robbery),

Yes, I know. I've already acknowledged that.

and you're assuming the officer isn't hiding anything, but the other witnesses are by default lying, why?

Police officers hold a position of trust in our society. I've known many, many police officers, and the vast majority are men and women of integrity and honor. I will give a police officer the benefit of the doubt over a guy known to have participated in a strong arm robbery just minutes before, who is willing to say anything to keep from being arrested.

Had Michael Brown not been shot, both he and Johnson would be sitting in the county jail at this minute, charged with that robbery. The shooting is the only reason Johnson is getting away from those charges.

you've made an assumption that he did go for the officer's gun with no more evidence than "the cop said so", and someone that would lose their job, and face criminal charges couldn't have any motive to lie. He was shot once at the car, the other shots were fired after the fact, even the SLPD admits that, which is *wrong*

I haven't assumed anything. I simply find Wilson's story more believable than Johnson's. I've also said that view is subject to change pending the FBI investigative report.

When did the SLPD say this; source please.

If he shot without reason he has just as much if not more reason to lie.

It all boils down to credibility. A police officer is more credible than a guy who just participated in a robbery. But that is why an independant investigation has to take place; again, I've already said my views can change based on the outcome of that investigation.

official account:another shot hit and killed Brown 35 feet from the car.

That doesn't tell us how far Wilson was from Brown. He could have only been a few feet away. The distance from the car actually gives us very limited information from a forensic point of view.

also there's photos of the incident, taken by a witness.

Taken after the shooting had occured, through a window with an obscured view. Not really that valuable. I've seen the pictures and read the tweets.

you already have.

Have what? Seen the FBI investigation or formed a point of view. The former no, because the investigation isn't complete. The latter yes, but as I've already pointed out multiple times, I've said that POV is not set in stone (my original words) and subject to change based on the outcome of that investigation.

Unlike the POV of some people, which will not change no matter what.